A controversal topic...

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Not all life in this world rely on pain receptors to get them through life- insects for example have no pain receptors whatsoever and rely completly on instinct and eye sight to guide them through life and thrive on this life insurance. What is to say small fish like platys do not use this very same successful form of life insurance?

 

[Aylana]

Thanks!

Yeah I did. I spent the evening at the pub telling everyone about your fish (especially bruscilla) and the guinea pigs and birds. Then I talked about the cube and what I was going to put in it for a while and then I think they got sick and stopped listening to me.

Toxis: Maybe not pain receptors as such, but they have nerves which means they feel something and I would expect that they can feel unpleasant somethings too. As I said, may not be in the realm of pain as we think of it, more like discomfort, but I still believe they feel it and it affects their behaviour. This is partly from what I have observed in my own fish and other peoples. I can't comment on every species of fish because I haven't had a chance to observe them, but until proven otherwise I will apply my beliefs to all fish.

You are good at making us think aren't you?!

 

[Cheese Specialist]

Thanks!

Yeah I did. I spent the evening at the pub telling everyone about your fish (especially bruscilla) and the guinea pigs and birds. Then I talked about the cube and what I was going to put in it for a while and then I think they got sick and stopped listening to me.

lol, I think I do that too. My mates go into screensaver mode.

 

[andywg]

I think you'll find the main reason why it was stated that fish do not feel pain is because they are lacking the corresponding part of the brain that we feel pain in (I forget the scientific name of the area).

This can conceivabley qualify the statement that they do not feel pain in the same way as us as they do not have the relevant areas of the brain.

However our understanding of how our brain functions is far from complete and our understanding of the fish brain even less so. So it is possible it does feel pain similarly to us but with a different party of the brain or central nervous system.

Another point is to remember to discount reflex action (i.e. we touch a burning iron, we recoil our hand, a fish gets bitten, it swims away) as these normally take place in the spinal column and not in the "higher" nrevous systems.

Toxis, you said that the clove oil didn't work on the larger fish, did you increase the dose by the correct amount (based on weight not length)? This is a common reason for anasthetics failing (I'm not saying you didn't, just that it could be a reason).

Andy

 

[morgan]

If we are discussing pain in relation to fish euthenasia, can I ask why no-one ever mentions the stuff you can get from the vet? I have never had to euthenize a fish but I would have thought that a vet would know the best and most acceptable way of doing it. Has anyone got the stuff from a vet? Sorry to keep saying stuff but I don't know what it's called. Of course fish must feel pain, when I put anything in the tank (other than food) they move out of the way. So they must have learnt that they could be harmed (not deliberately by me) or feel uncomfortable if they are not careful.

 

[abstract]

A controversal topic..., Do fish feel pain?

no, not in the way that humans characterize it at least...

i think an interesting study would be to see how many fish that have been hooked once while fishing, bite the worm over and over just to be hooked again and again...there have been times that i have caught the same fish at least a half dozen times while fishing, is it just "dumb" as humans would say, does it lack a memory (which i believe many of us would disagree with, including myself - fish do have some form of memory IMO), or does it not feel any pain when being hooked?

 

[Opcn]

The purpose of pain as I understand it is to try to make you realise that what is happening is damaging to you and make you want to get away from it/stop what is happening. It has to be painful and horrible to invoke a quick reaction out of you and get you to protect yourself. It is a kind of biological preservation measure I think.

I tend to differ on this count, if you have ever done something stupid IE cut yourself you know that you go into shock and for a moment don't even feel the pain, its afterwords that the pain comes, I think it serves as more of a negative renforcement, a punishment if you will, for doing something dangerous and getting hurt. Pain nerves are very slow and dont send there signals fast enought to tell you your in trouble.

Abstract, perhaps its hungry enought to be willing to take another hole in the jaw (an area with few nerves) in exchange for a shot at a worm. What are you doing catching and releseing anyways? like a quarter of fish caught and released die from there injuries, just eat the fish, assuming its large enough.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

The reason why i mentioned the salmon study on the open university channel at the start of thread is because it has been proved that salmon have pain receptors in their spinal cord and mouth but it has not been proven in other parts of their body, and i am not sure how many other fish have been proven to have pain receptors in their body.
I think it is feasable to the theory that if a large fish like salmon has very few parts of its body that can feel pain, smaller fish like neon tetras that don't even have a bony body structure in their body may not feel pain at all?

It is a known fact that with flys, when you put your hand near a fly and it automatically flys away this is purely an instinct reaction- the same could be said that when you put your hand near a fish it swims away this is also the same reaction and not a pain based memory reaction.
The other day i had to perform surgery of a sort on a live fish for the first time- a female guppy of mine who has been suffering from finrot for about a month had not been responding to any meds i treated her with. Half her tail had been eaten away by the desease and i decided my last option was to trim the infected areas of the tail off with some sterolised scissors.
To be honest it was a very nerve racking experience for me but thankfully took very little time to do- when i cut the infected areas of the tail off she flinched at each snip. I don't know wether this was out of pain or merely and instinct reaction to move away when somthing was threatening her.
After the ordeal i put her back in the tank and she imediatly went back to the buisness of mindlessly swimming around and investigating plants with the other guppys like nothing had happened.

As to the fishing and fish being repetively being caught, it is known that your average livebearer has a memory span of 3 and a half hours and the ability to learn after repetive mistakes, they can also recognise and tell apart people and other fish if they see them on a daily basis and they also have complex social systems with other fish.
If a fish was taking the bait off a fishing line over and over again despite experiencing pain from the ordeal, i do not think this is down to bad fish memory but due to the lack of food in the wild and the fact the fish never knows when its next meal is going to be- a free and unlimited food source despite causing pain may be desirable enough for a hungry wild fish to take.

 

[abstract]

Abstract, perhaps its hungry enought to be willing to take another hole in the jaw (an area with few nerves) in exchange for a shot at a worm. What are you doing catching and releseing anyways? like a quarter of fish caught and released die from there injuries, just eat the fish, assuming its large enough.

maybe it's hungry enough to go after it...but i doubt it in a pond filled with minnows, insects, crustaceans and the likes...."like a quarter of the fish die" huh? where are you pulling these statistics from again? thats just absolute bull. it seems you are quick to criticize and throw out empty "facts" to prove your point, kind of funny that you suggested an educational debate on the subject - when you throw out nothing but attacks and opinions with no backing...

even if 1/4 did die (which would be absurd, as all small ponds and lakes would have floating dead fish everywhere and no stock to fish for anymore within a year)...i can guarantee to you that 100% of the fish that aren't released will die ....so, yea, maybe its better for me to NOT release them so that they will have a better chance of survival

how a hook in the lip kills a fish is beyond me, when they can live without eyes, tattered fins, missing tails, half jaws, and so on....now, i would have to agree with a statement such as "1/4 of the fish that swallow a hook and are released (after the fisherman tears out the hook and mutilates the insides) die"....

 

[Tiggs]

"1/4 of the fish that swallow a hook and are released (after the fisherman tears out the hook and mutilates the insides) die"


those are good odds for a mutilated fish!

 

[abstract]

"1/4 of the fish that swallow a hook and are released (after the fisherman tears out the hook and mutilates the insides) die"


those are good odds for a mutilated fish!

my point exactly...fish are damn tough....a hook in the lip and a 10 minute fight with an angler isn't gonna kill it...even ones that are torn up pretty badly will recover....thank you for reinforcing my statement

 

[GSD]

IMO they do feel pain

 

[Synirr]

i think an interesting study would be to see how many fish that have been hooked once while fishing, bite the worm over and over just to be hooked again and again...there have been times that i have caught the same fish at least a half dozen times while fishing, is it just "dumb" as humans would say, does it lack a memory (which i believe many of us would disagree with, including myself - fish do have some form of memory IMO), or does it not feel any pain when being hooked?

Uh... The fish are biting the worm because it's food. I don't think that most fish are intelligent enough to distinguish a hooked worm or minnow from any other food item; in other words, if they're hungry, they're probably going to bite it. Fish getting caught over and over again has very little to do with their ability to feel pain and more to do with their ability (or inability, as the case may be) to learn from past experience.

Personally, I think it depends on the species whether or not fish actually "feel" pain. They all obviously have touch receptors and reflex reaction as a necessity for survival, but I'm talking about the actual conscious experience of pain. To understand how evolutionarily valuable pain is, just imagine living without it. How would you know the stove is too hot to touch? How would you know that bee stings are unpleasant? The ability to feel pain helps us to identify things that are capable of damaging us and allows us to learn to avoid them, BUT... what use is pain if we aren't intelligent enough to learn to avoid it? That, I think, is the key to understanding this argument.
I don't think that less intelligent species of fish feel pain. I think that they operate primarily on reflex reaction. Think of mindless small schoaling fish that bunch together, swim in seemingly aimless patterns, and will attempt to eat anything that even slightly resembles food (put it in your mouth, THEN decide if it's edible.) More intelligent species, however, probably do feel pain in my opinion. As a personal example, my midas hybrid has learned to avoid my oscar... but only at mealtime. She is capable of understanding that my oscar tolerates her presence very well and only aggresses when food is involved. When I first got her she would try to feed with my oscar and got bitten several times, but within a week she learned to only go after food that wasn't anywhere near him. This is a learned behaviour... one does not learn from reflex reactions. Particularly for larger, longer-lived fish that don't rely on safety in numbers for protection and must mature for quite a while before they are able to reproduce, pain is an invaluable tool.

 

[gaya]

Uh... The fish are biting the worm because it's food. I don't think that most fish are intelligent enough to distinguish a hooked worm or minnow from any other food item; in other words, if they're hungry, they're probably going to bite it. Fish getting caught over and over again has very little to do with their ability to feel pain and more to do with their ability (or inability, as the case may be) to learn from past experience.

That is a very good point snyirr. Think of how many humans consume food products ridden with chemicals like pesticides etc and don’t know the difference. Even when we’re give the knowledge of its harm (cuz it’s usually on the news from time to time) we still continue to eat it.

 

[Synirr]

Think of how many humans consume food products ridden with chemicals like pesticides etc and don’t know the difference. Even when we’re give the knowledge of its harm (cuz it’s usually on the news from time to time) we still continue to eat it.

Heck, think about the high demand for poison puffer meat in some countries
It's like playing Russian roulette every time you eat that delicacy