A controversal topic...

[daudy_dojo]

how about this... all creatures fish and animal and human alike can feel pain, cut your cat... what happens, they scream kinda! step on a bird what happens, the scream sorta
shoot a human, they scream
stab a whale, it moans
and fish (like some animals) cant really make a noise.. (unless we are 7 times smaller than them) so we cant hear them yelp, or scream!

 

[abstract]

sorry to tell you daudy, but you are just assuming that these animals make noise...or may are basing it on the movie, but when was the last time you stabbed a whale? i can tell you for a fact that i have never heard a bird scream when it got stepped on...and fish CAN make sounds.

the other 2 animals (cat and whale) are mammals and we already agree that they can feel as close of a sensation to pain as humans..

 

[abstract]

and in RE: to Bignose...although that is a good citation i find it fairly irrelevant in this discussion regarding pain. fear is a very psychological phenomena - for instance, according to this article any animal can feel afraid and react without having been physically attacked/touched etc....they talk about the behavioral reaction (instinct) vs pyschological reaction (cognitive ability) in regards to fear....however, the question here is if animals, fish in particular, are able to link the behavioral reaction with the psychology of being in pain...i doubt that they are able to reason as such even if studies show that they MAY have a similar central nervous system as us humans

 

[troutfly]

as for the heron example, Synirr, that is absolutely amazing...i recently read an article on CNN that dolphins have learned to carry around natual sponges on their noses while they are hunting for food to protect them from getting stung or damaged searching in the corals (or wherever they hunt)....the more amazing thing about it was that certain families of directly related dolphins are the only ones to do this...meaning that they learn it from their parents and siblings - off topic, i know, but equally as amazing as the heron example!

You are comparing a mamal to a fish. Mamals have larger Cerebrums and Cerebellums therefore are more capible to learn greater tasks. I know in the 40's they taught dolphins to carry and attach under water bombs on the bottom of ships to distroy them.

I do however, on a regular basis go fishing and watch as the younger fish go after the bait more readily then the older or larger fish. I don't know if they have learned over the years that some "foods" come with hooks, but it does seem that way. I think the level of intelegence does vary between the species of fish, some "appear" more intellegent then others. I have noticed that catching trout can be harder then catching a blue gill, but is that because the trout is more intellegent or more causous of their surroundings? Who knows, personally, I have never asked one to find out.

I do know this with my medical background that: Fish do have certain pain receptors and will feel "pain stimuli" depending on how advanced their brain is. Some fish have considerable brain matter (ie. sharks) and are capable of higher thinking and pain reception. I know that some species of sharks have huge brains compared to their size, a White Shark has a larger brain and can process information faster then a Whale Shark can. This may attribute to the appearence of being "dumb" but in actuallity they are quit intellegent animals. I have seen some fish act as if they are in pain, which they probably are. Fish have a "closed" nervous system like humans do, they can detect pain stimuli and depending on where it is in the body, it is more intense then others. A fish has less pain receptors in the mouths then their skin, therefore when hooked, it isn't as painfull as if you were to stick them with a pin.

The controversy behind "catch and release" is one of great intrest to me, i have looked into it on several occassions because I am a "catch and release" fisherman only. I know some fish are more heartier then others, and in some instances can survive more " torture and pain" then others. A bass or catfish seems stronger then a trout because of the physical makeup, they have to endure more environmetal hazzerds due to their habitat. A trout is more hardier then a salmon becaue if you hook a trout, you can release it with out much harm as long as it is a clean release compared to a salmon who usually die after exhausting themselves from fighting the angler.

So IMO, fish do feel pain, and depending on what type of fish, how much pain and where the pain is inflicted, can respond differently then other fish in the same situation. As fo the "memory" part of this arguement, yes they can remember certain instances depending on how tramatic it is for the fish. Any fish can feel pain, it just depends on what the pain stimulis is and how severe it is.

 

[abstract]

the dolphin example was only for discussion purposes...something i found interesting but completely unrelated to the topic...it was in response to the herons using bread to attract fish example

 

[abstract]

bump... for all those who may have missed out on the fun B)

 

[Synirr]

From the Yue et al. article I cited above:

...the major argument lies in the fact that the neuroanatomical structure and function between fish and higher vertebrates are more similar than previously thought...

It appears that this is significant evidence that the fish anatomically do have many of the same sensations as birds and reptiles and mammals. I do not think you can just dismiss this evidence. If you feel that birds and reptiles and mammals can feel fear, then because anatomically they are so similar, I think you must include fish as well.

Thanks for the bump abstract, I noticed something I had missed

"...then because anatomically they are so similar, I think you must include fish as well."?
Exactly how anatomically similar are they, and in what ways? I would be interested to know. "More similar than previously thought" doesn't mean much considering exactly how dissimilar science has presumed them to be in the past. Until science has progressed further and more evidence on the matter has been uncovered, I think I will stick by my previous statement, especially since I didn't completely rule out the possibility of certain fishes "feeling" pain. Admittedly, though, it's going to take a lot to convince me that guppies and neons operate on much more than instinct and reflex

 

[Bignose]

I have to admit that a lot of this literature is beyond my expertise, but I am willing to defer to the authors of the work -- go and their paper and read the references cited therein. Synirr, if you can't get a copy of the paper from your university or library (most will inter-library loan it pretty quick) I can probably email it to ya.

I mainly wanted to play Devil's Advocate and point out that there is a significant amount of peer-reviewed scientific literature on both sides of the argument.