A controversal topic...

[abstract]

To end (in order to actually shut myself up) to say a fish cannot feel pain is obviously wrong, in my view, just because we don't see them react in a way we'd interpret as pain or because they can't cry or shout out.

it's not obvious to a lot of us, hence the debate
...your cat obviously doesn't feel pain from the boiler from the example you have given us...and most scentific work out there shows that somehow fish feel pain, so which way are you leaning? obviously you are saying that they do feel pain, yet contradict yourself in several spots (not meant to be an attack so please don't take it wrong - just questioning why the cat still goes up there if it feels the pain of being burned?)

and to Mr_Miagi32: there are many types of animals with similar nervous structure to us...that does not mean they have the ability to interpret stimuli in the manner that we do....a reaction to stimuli simply cannot be equated to showing emotion unless there is the mental capability to interpret it...

along the lines of heater burns i have a synondontis eupertus that burns himself almost on a weekly basis but sitll hangs out by the heater throughout the entire day until around 5 pm when he begins to come out and lurk every evening

 

[CFC]

Get a guard for that heater next time you are at the store then, while the burns themselves may not kill the fish if the wounds get infected it can have dire consequences.

 

[Miss Dib Dabs]

To end (in order to actually shut myself up) to say a fish cannot feel pain is obviously wrong, in my view, just because we don't see them react in a way we'd interpret as pain or because they can't cry or shout out.

it's not obvious to a lot of us, hence the debate
...your cat obviously doesn't feel pain from the boiler from the example you have given us...and most scentific work out there shows that somehow fish feel pain, so which way are you leaning? obviously you are saying that they do feel pain, yet contradict yourself in several spots (not meant to be an attack so please don't take it wrong - just questioning why the cat still goes up there if it feels the pain of being burned?)

I should say used to. She passed on years ago from shock after narrowly being missed by a car. She was notoriously stupid sadly. She felt pain but I suspect she decided the comfort of the warmth from the heater outweighed any discomfort she may have felt.
No offense taken, I enjoy a good debate. Otherwise how would any of us learn and keep an open mind?
As for the fish mentioned that do themselves such damage without any seemingly ill effects having not seen it first hand it's very hard to say. I can only truly judge by the reactions of those I care for and experience on a personal level. You could say why do humans submit themselves to piercings and tattoos when they really do hurt! (I know I have plenty of both.) We can feel the pain but do it anyway. It's also like picking a scab. We know it'll end up bleeding again but do it anyway! Why? The only difference is we THINK we know we feel pain. I am sure the fish think so too at some level, just not necessarily at a level we comprehend. I just think it's too easy for us to say this feels pain but this doesn't when truly we know very little about them or how their brains work.
I made the comparison to the cat as most scientists, if not all, will fully acknowledge that cats are definitely capable of feeling pain and yet do such things as to make you wonder!
Hope that made some sense.
Hugs,
P.

 

[abstract]

Get a guard for that heater next time you are at the store then, while the burns themselves may not kill the fish if the wounds get infected it can have dire consequences.

what do they actually look like? do they just snap on? are there different sizes? thanks in advance.

 

[abstract]

yes, very much so Miss Dib Dabs...it is really hard to argue (and comprehend) EITHER side of this debate...there are so many little instances that we have all experienced that either make us think one way or the other...

 

[CFC]

Get a guard for that heater next time you are at the store then, while the burns themselves may not kill the fish if the wounds get infected it can have dire consequences.

what do they actually look like? do they just snap on? are there different sizes? thanks in advance.

They are basicly just a plastic mesh tube that clips over the part of the heater with the heater elements inside, some come in different sizes and others have parts which snap on/off to suit the size of the heater.

 

[OrkyBetta]

Didn't read many of the posts, but fish pain has been scientifically proven. Fish have the central nervous system necessary to feel pain. Just like we do. Their nerves are simaler to cats, dogs, humans, etc. Think about it, pain is the brain's response to stimuli If you poke a fish, it reacts. Plants do not have nerves, and if you poke a plant it doesn't react. Same with fear. If a fish feels threatened, it will hide, and pant, and be skittish. It is an obvious thing that is hard to miss. Fish feel. They feel pain, emotions, lust, everyrhing. We just deny it becase it is easier for us to believe we are superior when we eat them, or if they die.

 

[abstract]

i suggest you read through the thread before you respond next time...although everyone has their opinions, it seems kind of rude to only present your own opinion admittedly not having read any of the other posts - almost a spit in the face just for future reference (although i know you didn't mean it to be).

must of us have already agreed that since the fish have a similar central nervous system to us that they are able to react to stimuli - that is instinct....if fish are able to cognitively identify what TYPE of stimuli it is (good, bad, painful, etc) is much of the debate here...

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Didn't read many of the posts, but fish pain has been scientifically proven. Fish have the central nervous system necessary to feel pain. Just like we do. Their nerves are simaler to cats, dogs, humans, etc. Think about it, pain is the brain's response to stimuli If you poke a fish, it reacts.

Not all fish feel pain though, and some of those that do only feel it in certain parts of their bodys.
Feeling pain is one thing, but if you only have pain receptors in say, your spinal cord and mouth, that is to say yes you technically feel pain but not throughout your entire body.

When we think of pain, we can feel it in almost every part of our body but even us, human beings do not feel it in every part- take the brain for example and inner scull- that does not have pain receptors.
If you take this into consideration and the fact that some fish like salmon have very few major parts of their bodys that can sense pain, it kind of gives you a whole new view to the debate and not just wether fish can feel pain, but where.

 

[Synirr]

Didn't read many of the posts, but fish pain has been scientifically proven. Fish have the central nervous system necessary to feel pain. Just like we do. Their nerves are simaler to cats, dogs, humans, etc. Think about it, pain is the brain's response to stimuli If you poke a fish, it reacts. Plants do not have nerves, and if you poke a plant it doesn't react. Same with fear. If a fish feels threatened, it will hide, and pant, and be skittish. It is an obvious thing that is hard to miss. Fish feel. They feel pain, emotions, lust, everyrhing. We just deny it becase it is easier for us to believe we are superior when we eat them, or if they die.

No, it has not been proven that all fish feel pain. If it had, we wouldn't be having this discussion, now would we? Please, never claim something has been "proven" when you don't actually know for a fact that it has... my scientific side cringes whenever I see that *lol*
Some plants actually do react to being poked, btw. Never heard of the "sensitive plant" (Mimosa pudica)? How about venus flytraps?
Anyway, just because you are capable of feeling one sensation doesn't mean you are capable of feeling others, so saying that fish react to touch proves absolutely nothing. And besides that, just because something reacts doesn't mean that it conciously "feels" anything. I'm sure the venus flytrap isn't thinking to itself "Oooo, something is touching my trap! I had better close it!"

abstract, I completely agree with your statement that pain is as much psychological as it is biological, but the biological sensation can easily exist with or without the psychological reaction, so saying that one has to be capable of "learning" pain, I don't think, is very accurate. I think where fish are concerned, some have the biological ability to feel pain, and only a certain few species (if any) are actually capable of the psychological response -- "feeling" hurt or stressed about the pain and being able to learn from it. Basically, I think a fair amount of them can experience the sensation of it, at least in parts of their bodies, but not many (if any) actually "feel" it as mammals (and possibly birds and reptiles) do.

As a side note, sometimes creatures are capable of feeling certain types of pain but not others. Like being able to feel a traumatic wound, but not burning heat. There's a man who was struck by lightning more than 5 times (I can't remember what the exact number was) and now he no longer feels the sensation of "cold"... see what I mean? Different nerves feel different sensations. Cats rarely ever feel too hot, which is why they can sit very close to a fireplace without being uncomfortable, and possibly why they would go into boilers

Oh, almost forgot! I had a personal example, hehe. We used to raise goats and one time a pair of twins were born in the middle of winter. We put a huge heat lamp in the barn so they wouldn't freeze, and they'd sit so close to it that they'd burn their noses.... now obviously goats (being mammals) can feel pain, but being so young the babies were apparently unable to figure out how to avoid that pain. The mother knew not to stand too close to the lamp, but the babies didn't (we eventually had to move it up higher so they wouldn't burn themselves). That's an example of something being able to feel pain but not being able to figure out how to avoid it.

 

[abstract]

And besides that, just because something reacts doesn't mean that it conciously "feels" anything.......

.....

I think where fish are concerned, some have the biological ability to feel pain, and only a certain few species (if any) are actually capable of the psychological response -- "feeling" hurt or stressed about the pain and being able to learn from it. Basically, I think a fair amount of them can experience the sensation of it, at least in parts of their bodies, but not many (if any) actually "feel" it as mammals (and possibly birds and reptiles) do.

i completely agree with those statements!

 

[Synirr]

And besides that, just because something reacts doesn't mean that it conciously "feels" anything.......

.....

I think where fish are concerned, some have the biological ability to feel pain, and only a certain few species (if any) are actually capable of the psychological response -- "feeling" hurt or stressed about the pain and being able to learn from it. Basically, I think a fair amount of them can experience the sensation of it, at least in parts of their bodies, but not many (if any) actually "feel" it as mammals (and possibly birds and reptiles) do.

i completely agree with those statements!

Great! We may be the only two people on this thread who are actually on the same page

 

[Boxcar Muzzdogg]

Even if certain fish do not have "pain receptors" they still feel pain. When you put a fish into certain harmful substances and the fish thrashes about, how does it know to thrash about other than it is feeling pain? The word often used to describe the adverse affects of stimuli on fish is "stress." Stress can cause fish to become infected with bacteria, fungus and parasites, and stress can even kill fish (without the aid of illness). If a fish can not feel pain lik we humans feel the cut of a knife or a punch, they can feel pain in terms of stress. Stress is most likely a form of pain that the fish feels.

 

[daudy_dojo]

very good conclusion boxcar i give you props for that

 

[Bignose]

RE:

I think where fish are concerned, some have the biological ability to feel pain, and only a certain few species (if any) are actually capable of the psychological response -- "feeling" hurt or stressed about the pain and being able to learn from it. Basically, I think a fair amount of them can experience the sensation of it, at least in parts of their bodies, but not many (if any) actually "feel" it as mammals (and possibly birds and reptiles) do.

From the Yue et al. article I cited above:

...the major argument lies in the fact that the neuroanatomical structure and function between fish and higher vertebrates are more similar than previously thought...

It appears that this is significant evidence that the fish anatomically do have many of the same sensations as birds and reptiles and mammals. I do not think you can just dismiss this evidence. If you feel that birds and reptiles and mammals can feel fear, then because anatomically they are so similar, I think you must include fish as well.