A Big New Tank - Help On Filter Choice Please!?

[Winterlily]

Hm, okay, I know what you are talking about with air gangs now - thanks for that. Are sponge filters a good idea (in addition to an HOB) just to up the biological filtration, or isn't that accurate? Do they create much current?

Algae lattice: Yep, I think it's gonna be a pain. Some of what I read about people who have them (or had them) said that they were like algae magnets. But like you said, easy enough to remove to clean - or even replace. And as to them seeing each other and getting stressed with the constant presence, when I asked about that in the Betta forum, they said no, they essentially get used to each other being there and after a short time start ignoring their neighbor.

Black out sheet, eh? Wish I could think of a way to do that and still allow water flow! The holes in the plastic canvas allow them to see through it no matter what.

And jumping - since I'll have a glass canopy, I'm figuring on bringing the divider up to touching the glass.

m00se: point taken about the heater. Since I very likely won't be doing a canister, I will need an in-tank heater. I'll probably start with one just because of cost, and add another as soon as I can.

*looks at his tank*

*realises he just has one heater*

*decides to ignore his own advice*

 

[waterdrop]

No, little air-driven sponge filters would create very little water movement compared to what normal filters do. My personal feeling is that separate sponge filters in the compartments would just be a pain and now that I know you are separating with the holy canvas it wouldn't make much sense. In fact it almost seems like it would be going after the wrong problem. The sponge filters work on the biofilter problem, cleaning ammonia and nitrite, which are molecular and go through the screens just like the water does, so separate compartment cleaning not needed. If anything, its the larger debris that can't get through the screens that might potentially be more of a minor problem and that's worked on more by mechanical filtration. In your case my assumption is that if you can get your gravel vac into the gravel in the sections that don't have a filter intake pipe, that will be enough to keep their debris levels from getting bad. I guess you might think about some sort of little system where you have a multi-compartment "holding bucket" for during cleanings so you can take the bettas and screens out and just gravel-clean more easily... but probably just having a gravel cleaner with a taller cylinder (so it can reach farther down and be used in a more straight up and down position perhaps) would be better (Python make these.)

So I guess we'd be back to a couple of more normal filters on the 55g and it'd be nice if some member who has run duel filters on a 55 (say 2 HOBs or a cannister and an HOB) would comment on what's been good for them in terms of a good overall flow for a 55g...

I think the blackout screen idea is not important given what the betta folks about the bettas behaving in the typical fish fashion and dropping interest in something after a bit when it doesn't develop (no direct access for a fight in this case!)

I think starting with a single heater, as long as it has sufficient wattage for the whole tank, will be fine given the porous screens.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OldMan47]

I suggested the XP2 because it is a good size for a 55. It has a spray bar that is about a foot long. I do not run more than one filter on a tank unless I am trying to cycle a new filter and don't have my new tank set up yet. In that case I always seem to slap it onto my big community tank and just run it while I do the rest of my shopping over the next weeks. I even run a filter there all the time so that I have an emergency replacement filter if anything happens on another tank. That way if I have any mechanical problems with a filter I have a known, ready to go filter.

 

[Winterlily]

OM47: Yeah, I remember you saying about keeping a spare filter in your main tank - such a great idea. When I have a genuine community tank, I'm going to do that as well. And just realized that in my post I typo'ed "XP3" when I meant XP2. Will edit that. Thing is, the advantage that canisters have is the extra biological filtration. Do I really need that with just 4 small fish in this huge tank?

A thought occurs to me - probably really dopey, but... What about having SMALL HOBs in each section? Is that idiotic? It would solve the problem entirely of mechanical filtration in each section and if we're talking small (like, let's say an AquaClear 20), it would still be a lot less expensive buying multiple of them than it would be to get a canister. Course, if that solution makes sense, I could have more solid dividers if I wanted to, I guess, too. Problem there with the heater, though. Arrrgggh...

Or, wouldn't it work that ideal way of filtering *mostly* in its own section and each little filter end up trying to filter all 55 gallons? ?

Seems like this ought not be so complicated... I seem awfully good at choosing situations that are......difficult. Guess this is why people try to have a bunch of divided (in half) 10 gallon tanks instead. If I had more horizontal surfaces, I'd make this 55 a true community tank, and deal with all the rest of this in a couple of divided 10s. Ah well.

Whacha think?

 

[waterdrop]

Yeah, I found myself thinking that a row of little nano aquariums would have been simpler than this big 55. BUT, its your idea and plan and you're into it now and hopefully it will be good when you've completed it!

My worry about a row of little AC20's would be that the pumps would not be strong enough to create as much overall water movement and would not really be reaching down to the bottom of each section.. but of couse that's just speculation and I could be wrong.

Overall I think OM47's Rena XP2 is a pretty good idea just because I think most of the smaller particles will just go through the screens and a large amount of what you want to accomplish with a filter is the completely dissolved stuff anyway and all that will be making it through the one big filter. I think that any larger debris will be handled ok by your weekly water changes. As you've said yourself, you're not going to have much of a waste problem anyway! Also the Rena is going to be easier on the wallet than an Eheim and as long as you are careful not to pinch the main O-Ring and take good care of the silicone parts, it should be a good filter. It would probably be quieter than the HOBs if that's a factor you've thought about.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Winterlily]

Yeah... seemed like a great idea at the time. Just a LITTLE thought would've had me second-thinking it. I plead MTS-brain.

I'm re-thinking it big time now. 2 low (waist high) pantry type cabinets in the kitchen might hold two 10 gallons quite nicely........ And the 55 gallon could be used for non-bettas - perhaps even my "first love" (and where I started years ago - I'm a "re-beginner" just like you; determined to learn it well and do it right this time!) of fancy goldfish. If so, big filtration will be needed, I know. Or... cichlids (just great colors!), or or or or. I dunno. But I'm now strongly thinking that the idea of dividing the 55 is not a great one.

... as long as you are careful not to pinch the main O-Ring and take good care of the silicone parts, it should be a good filter

?? The main O-ring? (Forgive my stupidity with canisters, please.) And what do I need to do to take care of the silicone parts?

Honestly, I am worried about leaks. I think canisters have a far bigger chance of leaking than an HOB, no?

 

[waterdrop]

No, cannisters are pretty much just as reliable. The pretty much universal design of external cannisters is to have a filter container (box) topped by a "pumphead" which serves as both the pump and the lid to the box. Its the silicone rubber seal that goes between these two that we call the main O-Ring, just a black gasket-looking thing usually.

Silicone rubber is wonderful stuff, has a smooth shiny feel. They make nice swim racer caps out of it now. Anyway, it feels like the sort of stuff that could never be changed by water and indeed we use if for lots of gaskets to seal water in or out. But in fact this stuff will degrade or break down when exposed to water and air, so it will live longer if its protected.

The stuff you use to protect/lubricate these silicone rubber parts is petroleum jelly. I know that Eheim supplies a small packet of this stuff with new filters and I assume other manufacturers do too. The "Vasoline" that many people have sitting on the bathroom shelf is basically the same stuff. There are those that worry about there possibly being extra ingredients in vasoline, but plenty of people have used this to maintain their pumps with no problem.

Usually there's the main O-Ring and two small O-Rings where the intake/output pipes attach to the filter. Lubing is simple. You just remove the rings and thoroughly lube them up with your fingers and then put them back. The worst part, for some filters, is removing/replacing the main O-Ring. That needs to be done carefully and double-checked as you don't want any pinches or twists, which could break the O-Ring. Always inspect all these gaskets for any need of replacement and always service them on each filter clean (if you do this they might last the life of the filter itself.)

Another good practice with cannister filters is to not just rest them straight out in your tank cabinet but to set them in their own plastic container. Usually the bottom part of a large "rubbermaid" or other refridg storage container can be found that is just a bit bigger than the bottom of the filter box. This would catch some of a leak and guards your cabinet of the odd splash of water when removing the hoses for a filter clean. If you're not familiar with cannisters you may not realize that they have clever shut-off valves that retain the water in the hoses when you disconnect them and you just carry the box away to be cleaned. Then you you reconnect, you often don't have to do anything for the siphon to immediately work and pull water from the tank into the filter box.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Winterlily]

Okay. Thanks so much, waterdrop. If there IS a problem with the o-ring, is that a little leak type problem (that the basin would catch), or a 55-gallons-all-over-my-living-room-floor (and dead fish in an empty tank!!) problem?

And, some LPS guy told me today that if I was to buy an Eheim Pro II, I'd better be real careful getting it online because I only want one manufactured recently since they had a problem with the O-rings. ? Sound right you think? (He felt the Classics were better all around and so was trying to sell me one of those.)

Thanks... someday I'll get this filter thing nailed down.

 

[waterdrop]

I'd say more often it would be the slight drib or dribble type leak and it would almost always be immediately after a filter clean. This is why you always dry off your filter box after cleaning and put your hands around it to feel periodically as you're admiring your tank after a water change and filter clean has left you tired and sitting there (at least this is what happens to me!) When I'm feeding the fish or fussing around the tank I sometimes reach into the catch basin under the filter box and check that its dry. (the old guys with giant fish rooms will laugh, but I'm back to having very little to check on!)

Who knows what your LFS guy was thinking. Perhaps it was personal experience. To give a counter-experience I've read of some on here that dumped their Fluvals to go to Eheim Pro II models because the Pro IIs had fewer leak problems! I'd still put the Pro and Pro II lines near the very top of the desirable list, the most often cited reason for not getting the IIs being just that one can't afford them even though they really wanted them. Yes the Classics are very reliable but in my opinion the convenience features of the Pro and Pro II lines are really nice to have if you can manage it. But then again, this is sort of a "to each his own" sort of thing where one person may feel the money well saved!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Winterlily]

Okay, filter has been bought. I really, really wanted the Eheim Pro II 2128, but, no way could I afford it. Most especially once I figured in how much it'd be to buy all the media. I know it's worth it and all that, but the funds have to be there to begin with. So I went with what I understand from here (OM47 in particular!) is a super close 2nd, and I got a Rena Filstar. I was going to get the XP2 as he recommended, but ended up with the XP3 instead for 2 reasons. One is that I found a place that the price was really good and super affordable for the XP3 (less than the XP2 was in some places!) and more importantly, I'm likely going to have fish in that tank that don't much like current, so I will have the flow control on low - reducing the GPH the filter can handle. I thought, in this case, it was better to go with the XP3 - hope that wasn't a really, really stupid mistake. I keep reading on here how you can never have too much filtration......

(ETA: I also decided on, and got, the 300W Hydor Inline heater - such a great idea!)

I did also get the rubbermaid-type container to hold the filter and any drips and what-have-you.

Thanks again!! Watch for my "how do I put this blasted thing together??!? posts that I'm sure will be forthcoming...

 

[OldMan47]

I don't doubt that you will have one of those threads. The instructions that come with the filter are almost useless but they go together easily once you catch on to what they are up to. The pictures and color coding do make things easy enough to figure out though. The main thing to remember is to make sure you cut the tubing at just the right length. Too long and you will get kinks that restrict flow, too short and the filter will need to be very carefully positioned to work at all. I would not want to have to put the filter rubbermaid on top of a phone book because I got careless measuring the hose before cutting it.

 

[Winterlily]

I would not want to have to put the filter rubbermaid on top of a phone book because I got careless measuring the hose before cutting it.

Yup - that would be me for sure.

One good thing is that I saw on their site that they have a really great video of set up - gotta be easier to follow that the written instrux.

But yeah... getting that hose right is going to be the killer for me I think. Stay tuned...

 

[waterdrop]

Hi Winterlily,

Had lost the positioning of this thread but am so glad to hear you've made progress and it all sounds good! With my Hydor, what I did was to devise a string with a slipknot which I hung around the back of the center brace of the tank and through the little islet hole they give you on the heater. I was able to adjust the height of the heater so that the string supports its weight rather than the water tubes per se.

You've maybe already done it by now but just remember that if you cut the water tubes slightly too long, that's better than cutting them too short, obviously, as you can make another cut. I agree with OM47 that its nice to get them "just right" but it didn't strike me as all that critical or difficult a job. Certainly you want to actually position all the equipment so that you can see it in position rather than guess at it.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Cdarmychi]

well, if all else fails, take my own filter failure as a lesson. I accidentally drilled a hole into my filter tubing when drilling into the cabinet to rewire something lol....so now I have short hoses connected to the filter, which is sitting on a milk crate, which is sitting in a tubberware, which is crammed into the cabinet.

There is ALWAYS a way to fix thing when they go wrong. So no worries. I have a fluval, which is notorious for its um.....quirks.... so im used to and good at catastrophic filter meltdown fixes. I can always walk you through any issues, and if all else fails, I have spare HOB filters in my basement to hold you and the media over till it can be siliconed back together (which I have also done to filters)

Sakura

 

[Winterlily]

Thanks guys! I'm not too worried about the filter set up (though I probably ought to be) - just concerned more with getting the tube length right and stuff. Ah well, if I screw it up really badly, one can always buy new tubes, right?

Thanks, waterdrop, for the hint on the Hydor and the calming reassurance about the filter setup!

And oh Sakura... whatever would I do without you? Thank you so much - seriously. Makes me feel lots better knowing there's that major backup. Having a reason not to panic is always a really, really good thing.

Samantha