My Fishless Cycling With A Twist!

[mark7616]

your trying to look for problems that aint there. My Nitrates out of my tap are 0. When fully stocked I had a trio of Rays, 21" RTG arowana, and various fish up to 16". Now after 1 week my Nitrates were only 40ppm no nitrate reactor no plants but my fish are healthy the rays would peg it in an instant otherwise. My nitrates should be 100ppm+ after a week I wouldnt worry mate.

 

[rhostog]

I wouldn't worry too much about the pH - it seems to be quite common for it to go up in the tank during cycling. You might also find it is a bit higher in your tank than from the tap after it's all established. Most fish seem to cope as long as the pH is steady.

Yes, I would expect you to have a nitrate and/or nitrite reading higher than you're seeing. My suggestion would be that you check your nitrate test, as your reading sounds very low for London tapwater - it might be right, but a dodgy nitrate test would explain the odd results. You could take a sample of the water to your local fish shop and ask them to test for nitrates, and tell you the number (often they just say 'it's OK'). Also you could look on the water authority website (Thames?) to see what you should expect from your tapwater. Here's the link for Thames Water:

[URL="http/www.thameswater.co.uk/cps/rde/xchg/SID-C09A10E8-0DEBE65C/corp/hs.xsl/899.htm"]http/www.thameswater.co.uk/cps/rde/xchg/.../hs.xsl/899.htm[/URL]

If you check the box for 'Full water quality report' and do a postcode search, partway down the page you'll see the nitrate results for your area for last year. That will give you an idea whether your test results for your tap water are reasonable or not.

Hope this helps, and good luck!

 

[Efren]

your trying to look for problems that aint there. My Nitrates out of my tap are 0. When fully stocked I had a trio of Rays, 21" RTG arowana, and various fish up to 16". Now after 1 week my Nitrates were only 40ppm no nitrate reactor no plants but my fish are healthy the rays would peg it in an instant otherwise. My nitrates should be 100ppm+ after a week I wouldnt worry mate.

i see, now i've got your point
maybe i've been reading this Fishless Cycle Article a lot - (makes a fool out of me)
because i'm trying so hard to get the results that the article suggests..
maybe my tank is cycled then ---

every test- i got good results (well that's based on API test kit)
my tank is only runnin' since aug. 4.. then the "twist" is that i used
Bactinettes as well--- and the results are very interesting- and promising...

my mistake it i raised the ammonia again and again hoping that i can get
atleast a bit of nitrite/nitrate spikes of whatever they called it.
i guess i'm on the safe side now to collect my first fish--

 

[locust267]

I am going to agree and disagree with some of your points.

Approx 22% of Dwarf Gouramis from Singapore carry the dwarf gourami iridovirus virus. This is why some Gouramis get sick. I would imagine this is due to the fact that when bought, they may already be carrying the virus and actually have nothing to do with the tank being mature. I certainly would not put off adding these for for 4-6 months. In fact i have 3 already and they have already spawned. My tank is only a short 3 weeks old.

If you have got a poorly Gouramis you only have to treat it as you would another other fish.

I do agree with water changes, however i have been doing 2 a week and my water stats have remained consistant even with a tank near its capacity in fish.

Generally speaking though gourami's from the LFS are very weak little guys and most members on here have stated that they have had experience with them dying in a new tank, some even a mature tank due to their weakness, perhaps through breeding etc. If you could find a gourami breeder on the other hand or even a reputable LFS then you might have some luck. Axle you are very lucky they have spawned after 3 weeks, what are you feeding them lol!

The next point is the thing with people saying yeah do a fishless cycle and then add fish slowly this is completely pointless and is actually the same as cycling a tank with fish ill explain: the reason you raise your ammonia up to 5-6ppm is so that you create enough bacteria for your filter to handle a fully stocked tank so once it is cycled you add your FULL bio load of fish to it there fore the filter can then handle all the waste. If you go out and add say a group of tetras you will not have any spike what will happen is all the bacteria that is not needed to handle the waste the fish produce will die off, as there is not enough waste being produced to feed the bacteria you produced during the cycle. Then a week later you go out buy a few more fish and "bam" you will get a spike and be posting on here asking why and receiving answers like its still a very new tank you have rushed etc etc when it’s not really the case.

Completely agree with this, after cycling the tank up to 5ppm this is what the filter can process fish waste wise. Since a few fish will not produce 5ppm ammonia most of the bacteria you have just built during a fishless cycle will die off. Best to add sensible fish to the stocking you want providing your filter can process 5ppm of ammonia to nitrite and 0 in 10-12 hours.

If done properly a fishless cycle wont take 6 weeks.

What do you mean by done properly, do you mean using mature filter? If not then I certainly dont agree with this. Starting from scratch my tank has taken so far 6 weeks and I'm still only on the nitrite phase. Now I now my tank stalled but a lot of other members on here would disagree that it only takes up to 3 weeks considering they do everything by the book. My cycle "fixed" on the 23rd July so this wed would technically be 2 weeks from then but I should still have a fair while to go.

 

[Axleuk]

Generally speaking though gourami's from the LFS are very weak little guys and most members on here have stated that they have had experience with them dying in a new tank, some even a mature tank due to their weakness, perhaps through breeding etc. If you could find a gourami breeder on the other hand or even a reputable LFS then you might have some luck. Axle you are very lucky they have spawned after 3 weeks, what are you feeding them lol!

Well, i originally had 1 male and 1 female. The male was getting very aggressive towards other fish so i thought i would introduce another female and get some floating plants as i know thats what they need to breed and they also use them to hang out in.

I bought the second female and the plants and added them late morning. I also did a 20% water change after he did the bubblenest being careful not to distrub anything. That evening he was mating with the new female. I purposely kept the water being added at a lower temp so i reckon that triggered the spawning.

I have documented most things here

 

[locust267]

your trying to look for problems that aint there. My Nitrates out of my tap are 0. When fully stocked I had a trio of Rays, 21" RTG arowana, and various fish up to 16". Now after 1 week my Nitrates were only 40ppm no nitrate reactor no plants but my fish are healthy the rays would peg it in an instant otherwise. My nitrates should be 100ppm+ after a week I wouldnt worry mate.

i see, now i've got your point
maybe i've been reading this Fishless Cycle Article a lot - (makes a fool out of me)
because i'm trying so hard to get the results that the article suggests..
maybe my tank is cycled then ---

I would have to say your tank is not cycled, although others may disagree please consider that the likes of Miss Wiggle and Waterdrop are away and they have the knack of putting things in a really basic way.

Basically as you know ammonia turns to nitrIte, NitrIte turns to NitrAte and NitrAte then can only be removed via plants (only a very small amount) and water changes.

What you will see at the end of a cycle is a backlog of nitrAte, this is because for every amount of ammonia you add to the tank it converts to a certain amount of nitrite, this then converts to a certain amount of nitrate (I cant remember the exact equation). At the end of the cycle you will be processing 5ppm of ammonia to 0 and 0 nitrite in 10-12 hours. Each time you then add ammonia you will be getting a slightly higher nitrate reading as it has nowhere to go except sit in the tank until you do a water change.

You might not get a great deal of nitrate although it is usual for it to go off the scale, however it would definately be more than your tap water. Please make sure the test is done to the exact word.

I personally believe your nitrite spike is yet to come which if it is the case would be highly dangerous for your fish and annoying as you will have to do water changes.

I would wait a while to see if you start getting a nitrite reading, then a nitrate reading should soon follow.

At the end of the day it is your decision what to do but remember patience always pays off and even if your tank is cycled, is there any harm in waiting a little longer just to make sure?

Vicki

 

[mark7616]

properly as in followed the instructions things like ph can alter the time it takes but shouldnt take 6 weeks to fishless cycle a tank. Longest ive done it in was 3 weeks quickest was a week I also know many other people who have doen it and not taken anywhere near 6 weeks. Same for the guy who started this thread his tank has been cycled for the past few days but on advice he has been given he keeps adding ammonia to check the levels nothing wrong with this but should not be included in the time taken.

 

[locust267]

Generally speaking though gourami's from the LFS are very weak little guys and most members on here have stated that they have had experience with them dying in a new tank, some even a mature tank due to their weakness, perhaps through breeding etc. If you could find a gourami breeder on the other hand or even a reputable LFS then you might have some luck. Axle you are very lucky they have spawned after 3 weeks, what are you feeding them lol!

Well, i originally had 1 male and 1 female. The male was getting very aggressive towards other fish so i thought i would introduce another female and get some floating plants as i know thats what they need to breed and they also use them to hang out in.

I bought the second female and the plants and added them late morning. I also did a 20% water change after he did the bubblenest being careful not to distrub anything. That evening he was mating with the new female. I purposely kept the water being added at a lower temp so i reckon that triggered the spawning.

I have documented most things here

If you get some surviving fry you might have to send some my way then as the parents seem really hardy lol

 

[TheMerovingian]

sorry but i'll alittle confused.
Can a cycle be done in just one week?
and i dont understand the second quote from mark.




sorry for butting in

 

[locust267]

properly as in followed the instructions things like ph can alter the time it takes but shouldnt take 6 weeks to fishless cycle a tank. Longest ive done it in was 3 weeks quickest was a week I also know many other people who have doen it and not taken anywhere near 6 weeks. Same for the guy who started this thread his tank has been cycled for the past few days but on advice he has been given he keeps adding ammonia to check the levels nothing wrong with this but should not be included in the time taken.

You and others must be very lucky or following a different guide to the one on here.

Efrens tank IMO is not cycled yet as there isn't any proof that any nitrite is being produced let alone processed to nitrate as there isn't even a smidgen of nitrate around.

My pH has been stable at 8 with a KH of 11, I know for a fact that my nitrite spike has been with me since 2nd August, so 9 days alone for just the 2nd phase and I haven't so much as done one thing wrong. Why would I still be seing this spike and when would you expect it to go down?

Just to note my Nitrates are at 120, tap water is 7.5.

Vicki

 

[Axleuk]

Here is a quick tidbit for consideration i have just read.

Nitrates would have to be approx 1000ppm in order to actaully be responsible for a fishes death, however the effects of lower levels on long term health, growth and breeding are still not fully understood, so in general aquarists try and keep the levels below 50ppm. This is just to be cautious and not a laid down in aquarist law.

Fish that are supplied in your LFS are generally breed under controlled conditions in tanks and are more tolerable to Nitrates than fish that are captured and sold wild. Wild fish in general are never subject to Nitrates due to the large amount of water they come from and it is the wild fish that Nitrates are most harmful too IMO.

My levels have been constant with Efrens for the past 3 weeks since i Bactinated (© Axleuk 2008) my tank and as i have already seen breeding success i would suggest the levels are for most fish. If there is any long term effects no-one will know and its pointless waiting and waiting when realistically the results are acceptable.

 

[locust267]

You dont wait for the nitrates because they are of danger etc.

You wait for the nitrates to show to prove that Nitrites are beings processed.

If nitrates do not show there is a good chance that Nitrite is not being processed and should you get a Nitrite spike, that will most certainly harm the fish.

IMO and others on here it is best to wait and see all the stages of a fishless cycle complete before adding fish. Although there may be some new way of cycling a tank of which you guys are adding to the reseach.

Can I just ask you one question though, well 2..

1: What and where exactly is your ammonia going?
2: What and where exactly is your nitrite going?

Vicki

 

[minxfishy]

Im with Vicki, my concern with the cycle Efren as previously mentioned, is the lack of nitrAtes, plus the fact you never saw any nitrItes.

Whilst maybe the bactinettes have indeed used up the ammonia, why did they not convert to nitrItes or why havent the nitrItes convereted to nitrAtes?

Can you tell me how long you are supposed to use these bactinettes in the filter? What happens when they run out? Or is it a case that they colonise your filter media and rapidly grow the beneficial bacteria that is needed ? Im confused, because once they are gone, if your media is not mature, then what happens with all the ammonia that your fish produce.

 

[Axleuk]

Im with Vicki, my concern with the cycle Efren as previously mentioned, is the lack of nitrAtes, plus the fact you never saw any nitrItes.

Whilst maybe the bactinettes have indeed used up the ammonia, why did they not convert to nitrItes or why havent the nitrItes convereted to nitrAtes?

Can you tell me how long you are supposed to use these bactinettes in the filter? What happens when they run out? Or is it a case that they colonise your filter media and rapidly grow the beneficial bacteria that is needed ? Im confused, because once they are gone, if your media is not mature, then what happens with all the ammonia that your fish produce.

Bactinette make the claim that you can add fish straight away. I am sure this claim has been tried and tested blah blah blah. I now know of a few LFS that use it themselves in their own tanks and the fact that their business is fish supports my own appreciation.

I beleive, and i will try and find out for you, that the bactinette dissolve slowly and after a peroid of time disappear at which point your tank should be cycled enough to take it from there as they will have enough nitrifying baceria to do the job.

 

[wreckster]

Bactinettes do not appear to have worked for me.

You can see my test results here --> http/spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pFt...UpbaA&hl=en

They were added as an experiment as I have no intention of adding any fish for a while as I am going on holiday soon. The bactinettes were out of the fridge and into my external filter within 20 minutes.