Community Fish

[Jordan_Deus]

This presents problems. First, these are sedate chichlids, so active swimmers are an annoyance (danios and barbs). Second, they need higher temperature than danios and barbs are comfortable with, so that is an issue. You've already (I believe) discounted neon tetra, but they don't like water this warm either. By warm with the common ram, Mikrogeophagus ramirezi in any of its colour varieties, I mean 80F/27C minimum. The barbs and danios are better no warmer than 75F/23C. This difference may seem small, but to the fish it is major. Fish are ectothermic; the temperature of the surrounding water directly drives their metabolism. In nature there are diurnal temperature variations, but they are minimal and the fish can adjust temporarily; in the aquarium it is constant, and this impacts the fish's physiology.

Byron.

Are there any fast moving Cichlid that can be added to the tank?

Edit: Just thought about a Tiger Shark or a dwarf puffer, are these an option with the Cherry Barbs and Zebra Danios?

Second Edit: How about Corydoras or odessa barbs, both seem to be fast moving and need to be kept in a school of about four?

Another thing I thought about was having a section of the tan where the substrate is sand instead of round, smooth gravel and stocking about 3-4 Kuhilis.

Last edit I promise.... Can anyone vouch for the reliability of the website aqadvisor.com? Also could you guys take a look at the list I made there and lemme know what you think? Link: http://aqadvisor.com/AqAdvisor.php?...AqSpeciesWindowSize=short&AqSearchMode=simple

 

[Byron]

To my knowledge KH is more important for the fish than GH. Unfortunately I cannot cite any literature. If anyone can provide anything substantial to refuse that (@Byron you seem to have a different take on that ), I am happy to learn something new.

I have always read that GH is the critical parameter, but this may have something to do with the fact that GH and KH usually correspond closely. If the water is hard, the KH will be on the higher side, whereas in soft water the KH will be much lower. I realize there can be differences, and I have never delved into this more as I do not get along with chemistry as much as biology. Grabbing a reference book, The Manual of Fish Health, there is a full page of text devoted to the effects of GH on fish, and it is considerable. It seems to consider the "hardness" as both GH/KH.

I may put this question to my friend Neale Monks when I have the opportunity later, and if I remember I will report back on his take.

If you want to "fill up your tank" it is much better to chose one gregarious species and add a decent number of it. It looks much better and also is for the fish much better than a mix of many different species with too few individuals. This also prevents the problem with the "nippy" species. Nipping only occurs in overcrowded tanks, where those species are not present in sufficient numbers, but as single individuals or super small groups which do not allow for proper intra-species interaction.

I agree with the bold text but only with respect to "peaceful" fish species. A couple years ago the first scientifically-controlled study of this was reported in PFK, and the findings were that with less than five of a species, the fish reacted with increased aggression. They used angelfish, a tetra (black neon I think, maybe something else) and a couple other shoaling species. Their conclusion was that aggression increased in semi-aggressive species (angelfish) and appeared in otherwise peaceful species (the tetra).

There are species where numbers will help within the species group, but not usually to other species that are sedate and/or possess flowing fins. Tiger Barbs, Serpae (Red Minor) Tetra, and similar species will be nippy toward sedate fish like gourami, Betta, angelfish, discus, most all cichlids, etc. in 9 out of 10 cases. The sedate fish seem to act like a red rag in front of a bull. Individual fish may differ from the norm here, as always, but the risk is very high that "nippy" species will be just that, nippy, with sedate fish.

About the bristlenose pleco: Should be easily possible to house more than one in your tank, if you provide enough cover and separate hiding places (up to 4, better only 2). But be aware that you will be pretty easily overrun with offspring, if you don't stick to single sex only!

Males of loricariids are territorial, to varying degrees depending upon the species. Tank size also plays into this, as you note. Bristlenose (Ancistrus sp.) males are territorial with conspecifics but this may not lead to much, but worth keeping in mind.

Byron.

 

[Byron]

Are there any fast moving Cichlid that can be added to the tank?

No. All neotropic cichlids are fairly quiet fish, movement wise.

Edit: Just thought about a Tiger Shark or a dwarf puffer, are these an option with the Cherry Barbs and Zebra Danios?

No. Here you are in to very different parameters (puffer, all but one are brackish) plus puffers tend to be feisty (nippy), depending. And they are slow fish, not active, so bad on that score too. Tiger Shark, I need to know the species, I cannot remember the genus. But I do remember reading that this is not a home aquarium fish.

Second Edit: How about Corydoras or odessa barbs, both seem to be fast moving and need to be kept in a school of about four?

Corydoras must have minimum five, but this is a highly social fish that will always be in signifcantly better health if it has many more. I have 50 in my 70g, representing 12 species, and they are thriving and spawning all over the pace. I've had some of them for over 9 years, though that is nothing for this fish which can live much longer--up to 20 years has been documented in aquaria, in the right environment. In your 75g/288 liter, I would have 12-15. Several of each species is best, but I have found they do seem to not care too much just so long there are lots of them. In my tank, some species spend more time together, others rarely. Corys level of activity is a bit different from upper water fish. Cories are "active" but I would describe it more as bumbling along the substrate, over wood, plant leaves, etc. Always on the move, but not hyperactive. Cories are frequently maintained in tanks with shoals of discus, or angelfish, or they are fine with gourami. "Active" may have different aspects.

For hyperactive, maybe Odessa barbs; they need a group, minimum six but a few more is again better. This is a very active swimmer. Would work with other similar active upper fish, but again not if you decide on sedate fish in the tank.

Another thing I thought about was having a section of the tan where the substrate is sand instead of round, smooth gravel and stocking about 3-4 Kuhilis.

This rarely works, and in my view never really works. Water will move around naturally (regardless of filter, but that is a factor too) and fish disturb the substrate. Unless there is some sort of permanent divider this rarely works. The other thing is appearance; this is not "natural" and it immediately not only looks artificial but it physically lessens the space, making the tank look smaller.

Last edit I promise.... Can anyone vouch for the reliability of the website aqadvisor.com? Also could you guys take a look at the list I made there and lemme know what you think?

This site and a couple others are sort of "OK" provided one keeps in mind that no site can ever be accurate. There are factors that simply cannot be programmed into an auto program, they take human thought intervention. We have been talking about some of these in this thread, but there are several considerations for a community tank (community being more than one fish species): water paramters (GH, KH, pH, temperature), aquascape (substrate material, wood, rock, plants--any of these may be essential to this or that species so they must be factored in; simple example, having a pleco in a tank without real wood means a sick fish and premature death because wood is an essential part of the digestive system), water movement from the filter (some fish must have strong currents, some fish totally the opposite and need a swamp type movement), lighting (most fish need less than what we often provide, but for some this is essential), tank size obviously, numbers in the group for a shoaling species, behaviours of each species, mature size...and probably others I can't remember just now.

Looking at the data on AA, I would up the numbers of zebra danio (9-12) and harlequin rasbora (12-15). This rasbora is more quiet than the danios, but it is a bit more "hardy" whatever that means.

Byron.

 

[Jordan_Deus]

So this is my final list (I think lol), the plecos will be a male and a female to lessen the chance of fighting. I'm hoping any fry they produce will quickly be eaten by the Barbs. I think I can get away with six corys, I'm just scared of overcrowding the tank. I might replace the Cherry Barb with the Harlequin Barb, haven't decided which I like more. Don't want them both because that's a lot of red in one tank imo.

Edit: Another Idea for the stocking

 

[Jordan_Deus]

.

No. Here you are in to very different parameters (puffer, all but one are brackish) plus puffers tend to be feisty (nippy), depending. And they are slow fish, not active, so bad on that score too. Tiger Shark, I need to know the species, I cannot remember the genus. But I do remember reading that this is not a home aquarium fish.

Red tail Tiger Shark, I read that it's chance of getting along with the other fish is slim.

 

[Byron]

Red tail Tiger Shark, I read that it's chance of getting along with the other fish is slim.

True, I wouldn't. It means no other substrate fish, and for some reason individual RTS often take a real dislike to upper fish with vertical stripes (no idea why, it is just a documented issue). And, some can be very nasty, or turn nasty as they mature. And at 5 inches, they are not small.

 

[Byron]

I think I can get away with six corys, I'm just scared of overcrowding the tank.

I'd like to point out why this is not good thinking. All fish will be healthier long-term if they have an environment that meets their needs as much as possible. This includes the numbers of the species when it is a shoaling species as all cories are. Having just six will add stress to the cories, that having 12 would remove. So if we really care about the fish in our tanks, as I'm sure you do with all your enquiries, we should make every possible effort to provide the best environment. You have the space, so 12 cories instead of six is the way to go.

Another thing, is that 12 will have less biological impact than six, because of the ramifications of too few. I know this seems odd, because many think of biological impact as simply an issue of fish mass per water volume. But as I tried to point out previously, this isn't so.

 

[Jordan_Deus]

I'd like to point out why this is not good thinking. All fish will be healthier long-term if they have an environment that meets their needs as much as possible. This includes the numbers of the species when it is a shoaling species as all cories are. Having just six will add stress to the cories, that having 12 would remove. So if we really care about the fish in our tanks, as I'm sure you do with all your enquiries, we should make every possible effort to provide the best environment. You have the space, so 12 cories instead of six is the way to go.

Another thing, is that 12 will have less biological impact than six, because of the ramifications of too few. I know this seems odd, because many think of biological impact as simply an issue of fish mass per water volume. But as I tried to point out previously, this isn't so.

I think that I will go with this list and bump up the corys to 12. Three more questions though:
1. I was just wondering if coconut shells could supplement bogwood in Pleco's diet? Was looking into building caves and thought "Oh maybe coconuts are edible like bogwood, they both release tannis". I doubt this is true but worth asking.
2. The substrate in my tank I'd prefer to have is river pebbles, each about half an inch in diameter. These won't harm the corys right?
3. If I have a male and female Bristlenose in the setup listed above, will I be overrun with fry or will the other fish take care of them?

Would just like to say a big thank you to everyone here who's helped my figure this out

 

[Byron]

I think that I will go with this list and bump up the corys to 12. Three more questions though:
1. I was just wondering if coconut shells could supplement bogwood in Pleco's diet? Was looking into building caves and thought "Oh maybe coconuts are edible like bogwood, they both release tannis". I doubt this is true but worth asking.

You need real wood. Bristlenose don' get any nutrients from eating the wood, but it is essential for the health of their digestive tract. Obviously it is something in wood, I believe it is bacterial, that is necessary for the intestines. Some pleco, like the species in the genus Panaque, need this even more and I believe they do actually eat the wood. Wood also helps the pleco to grind down their teeth, something they cannot do with glass or rock (latter obviously too extreme). The shells can still be used for cave decor, just make sure they have a couple chunks of aquarium bogwood.

2. The substrate in my tank I'd prefer to have is river pebbles, each about half an inch in diameter. These won't harm the corys right?

This is not good with cories. There is more than just the roughness. Cories take a mouthful of sand, pick out tidbits of any food, and expel the sand out through the gills. They cannot do this with gravel or anything other than sand (or mud in some habitats). So denying them sand is not providing something they "expect," and here we are back to the health of the fish depending upon getting what they expect.

The other thing about a substrate of pebbles is biological. Food and detritus will fall down among the pebbles, and bacteria have more trouble dealing with this. A finer substrate solves this problem.

I have a sand substrate in all my tanks, but in the 90g I have a lot of river rock of varying sizes in groups, which makes a very authentic Indian (South Asian) stream aquascape. I have loaches in this tank, and they love to burrow under chunks of wood, excavating tunnels.

3. If I have a male and female Bristlenose in the setup listed above, will I be overrun with fry or will the other fish take care of them?

This I'm not sure of, as I've never had a pair. But given that the male is so protective of the eggs and fry, I suspect survival would be relative. With most fish, eggs are eaten almost as fast as they are laid, but species that protect them stand a good chance of saving most if not all of them. My Farlowella vitatta are like this; the male guards the eggs for 12-14 days, until they hatch; nothing has ever gotten the eggs, but once they hatch, the fry that are non-swimming for 5 days hang on plant leaves and such, and then can be easily picked off.

 

[Jordan_Deus]

You need real wood. Bristlenose don' get any nutrients from eating the wood, but it is essential for the health of their digestive tract. Obviously it is something in wood, I believe it is bacterial, that is necessary for the intestines. Some pleco, like the species in the genus Panaque, need this even more and I believe they do actually eat the wood. Wood also helps the pleco to grind down their teeth, something they cannot do with glass or rock (latter obviously too extreme). The shells can still be used for cave decor, just make sure they have a couple chunks of aquarium bogwood.



This is not good with cories. There is more than just the roughness. Cories take a mouthful of sand, pick out tidbits of any food, and expel the sand out through the gills. They cannot do this with gravel or anything other than sand (or mud in some habitats). So denying them sand is not providing something they "expect," and here we are back to the health of the fish depending upon getting what they expect.

The other thing about a substrate of pebbles is biological. Food and detritus will fall down among the pebbles, and bacteria have more trouble dealing with this. A finer substrate solves this problem.

I have a sand substrate in all my tanks, but in the 90g I have a lot of river rock of varying sizes in groups, which makes a very authentic Indian (South Asian) stream aquascape. I have loaches in this tank, and they love to burrow under chunks of wood, excavating tunnels.



This I'm not sure of, as I've never had a pair. But given that the male is so protective of the eggs and fry, I suspect survival would be relative. With most fish, eggs are eaten almost as fast as they are laid, but species that protect them stand a good chance of saving most if not all of them. My Farlowella vitatta are like this; the male guards the eggs for 12-14 days, until they hatch; nothing has ever gotten the eggs, but once they hatch, the fry that are non-swimming for 5 days hang on plant leaves and such, and then can be easily picked off.

Great! Thanks for the reply, I'll make sure to have sand and bogwood in the tank. Might use the river pebbles around plant roots so that they don't get up rooted. As for the plecos, I understand that the fry are free swimming after a few days eating the egg sack or something. So after that they'll hopefully get eaten (that sounds worse than I mean it). If they don't I'll simply return them to the lfs. Is regular play sand pknfor fish tanks? Or do I need to buy something special for the fish?

 

[Byron]

Great! Thanks for the reply, I'll make sure to have sand and bogwood in the tank. Might use the river pebbles around plant roots so that they don't get up rooted. As for the plecos, I understand that the fry are free swimming after a few days eating the egg sack or something. So after that they'll hopefully get eaten (that sounds worse than I mean it). If they don't I'll simply return them to the lfs. Is regular play sand pknfor fish tanks? Or do I need to buy something special for the fish?

Play Sand is ideal, I use that in all 8 tanks. Make sure it is play sand, as this is a highly refined sand so it is very smooth, excellent for fish. And plants grow well in it.

 

[Jordan_Deus]

Play Sand is ideal, I use that in all 8 tanks. Make sure it is play sand, as this is a highly refined sand so it is very smooth, excellent for fish. And plants grow well in it.

Thanks

Sent from my MX4 using Tapatalk

 

[Logic]

I find dutch’s fish suggestions the best so far, he is right with the two schooling fish as they could create a beautiful large school. You seem as if your going for the more normal non hobbyist approach to getting fish that in the moment and on camera look “cool” but in reality (depending on the person) they aren’t really. Killi’s (as stated) come in many varietys and get quite large and are Not 2.5” max length. I used work at a LFS who breed and sold killi’s (well the owner did as his personal hobby) and those guys, biggest one I saw I would say was about 6” or so. Big guys to. Beautiful fish especially when flaring!

 

[Logic]

And plants grow well in it.

That is very unspecific Byron…

Not all plants grow well in sand, many do but not all do. Sand generally constricts plants roots, crypts and low light plants generally grow the best in sand due to their large roots, the roots are bigger most of time than the actual plant. Buce included in this situation, as well as anubias sp… Sand is a good substrate if you know how to use it. For plants I recommend ADA aquasoil Amazonia. Carries vital nutrition for plants, and the soil doesn’t constrict enough for plants roots to die. It is porous and allows water and water column nutrition to flow through it, plus the nutrients already available there.

 

[Byron]

That is very unspecific Byron…

Not all plants grow well in sand, many do but not all do. Sand generally constricts plants roots, crypts and low light plants generally grow the best in sand due to their large roots, the roots are bigger most of time than the actual plant. Buce included in this situation, as well as anubias sp… Sand is a good substrate if you know how to use it. For plants I recommend ADA aquasoil Amazonia. Carries vital nutrition for plants, and the soil doesn’t constrict enough for plants roots to die. It is porous and allows water and water column nutrition to flow through it, plus the nutrients already available there.

Interesting thinking, considering that most of our aquarium plants that are rooted in the substrate naturally grow in clay and/or sand. I've not had issues with sand...can you be more specific.