Algal Rollercoaster Ride

[mark4785]

The glue looks fine, cyanoacrylate is what I use.

I thought TPN+ had ammonium in not ammonia?

Ahh ok thanks.

The ratio of ammonia/ammonium changes according to PH and to lesser extent, temperature. With an acidic PH and low temperature ammonium predominates, while if you raise temperature and/or PH, the concentration of ammonium (virtually non-toxic) starts to convert into ammonia (highly toxic at 0.07ppm and above from what I've read).

From what I've read, it's impossible to add ammonium and keep it in that form when the temperature and PH starts to rise. It will always convert into ammonia in reaction to the conditions in the environment. That's why I'm very reluctant to use TPN+ because if an unexpected issue occurs which causes the aquarium temperature to rise considerably (same with the PH) then most of my fish will start to die within a small amount of time from toxic ammonia poisoning.

 

[PDSimon]

All sounds very unlikely to me... I've used TPN+ before and started using it again too..

What sort of temperatures are you talking about then?

People put loads of this stuff in weekly sometimes and it has no effect on the fish even when overdosed.. Your tank must be warm for the GBR's so why would the temperature suddenly rise above that?

 

[ian]

I think you may find that the ammonium is used up before it even has chance to be un-bound. Can i ask where you found the evidence for

The ratio of ammonia/ammonium changes according to PH and to lesser extent, temperature. With an acidic PH and low temperature ammonium predominates, while if you raise temperature and/or PH, the concentration of ammonium (virtually non-toxic) starts to convert into ammonia (highly toxic at 0.07ppm and above from what I've read).

Does it tell you what temp and the Ph in that these chages occur?

 

[mark4785]

I think you may find that the ammonium is used up before it even has chance to be un-bound. Can i ask where you found the evidence for

The ratio of ammonia/ammonium changes according to PH and to lesser extent, temperature. With an acidic PH and low temperature ammonium predominates, while if you raise temperature and/or PH, the concentration of ammonium (virtually non-toxic) starts to convert into ammonia (highly toxic at 0.07ppm and above from what I've read).

Does it tell you what temp and the Ph in that these chages occur?

Various chemistry articles indicate the level of NH3 relative to PH and temperature, including:

article 1: http/www.dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/AmmoniaTox.html .

article 2: (explains what environment changes happen to cause increase in NH3): http/www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/pH-Ammonia.htm

Here is an NH3 concentration calculator: http/www.petgoldfish.net/ammonia-calculator.html . Type in your tank total ammonia level along with your water PH and temperature and it will tell you, based on water temperature and PH, tell you what the ammonia/ammonium ratio is.

All sounds very unlikely to me... I've used TPN+ before and started using it again too..

What sort of temperatures are you talking about then?

People put loads of this stuff in weekly sometimes and it has no effect on the fish even when overdosed.. Your tank must be warm for the GBR's so why would the temperature suddenly rise above that?

My aquarium temperature is 27 degrees C (see scanned image above). It is likely to jump to 31 degrees C without my knowledge during heatwaves. In addition, my aquarium typically has a PH of 6.6 but it can jump to 7.2 straight after doing a water change (it can rise to 8.0+ without c02 addition). As can be seen from the article above, as the temperature and/or PH climb, the non-toxic NH4 (ammonium) plant fertiliser converts into NH3 (ammonia) and it is this that is toxic at 0.07ppm or even lower (depends really on what fish you are keeping).

If you search for 'ammonia and PH' on Google you may find the experiment in which fish started to die with free ammonia (NH3) levels at 0.07 ppm.

This article sums the relationship between PH and total ammonia best: http/www.extension.iastate.edu/CropNews/2008/0421JohnSawyer.htm

By the way, i'm not saying TPN+ is dangerous. Its only going to be a risk if it's added to water that is warm and which has a high PH since the solution turns into NH3 in those conditions. Based on past experience, whereby my PH/temperature has risen without any intervention, I do ask myself why on earth would I risk TPN+ being turned into a deadly concoction by way of temp/PH change.

 

[mark4785]

double post sorry.

 

[mark4785]

The glue looks fine, cyanoacrylate is what I use.

I thought TPN+ had ammonium in not ammonia?

First of all, from what I've read, ammonium (not toxic) and ammonia (very toxic) exist in the TPN+ solution in MOST circumstances. The only time ammonia won't exist is when PH and temperature are lower; it doesn't disappear though, it gets converted into ammonium. When a sudden rise in PH/temperature occurs either due to a buffer or W/C, a chemical reaction occurs which involves the ammonium being converted back into ammonia.

 

[PDSimon]

Really? 31 degrees.. I have my tank in my room, with a great big computer and in the summer it gets ridiculously hot, sun all through the afternoon (not directly) and the tank doesn't even change temp

anyways, I cannot help chemistry bores me

 

[SuperColey1]

TPN+ has ammonium nitrate in it. No ammonia as far as I know!!!

Mark I think you're getting worried over nothing again.

The question you ask on what do other people do to ensure that the temperature stays cool and the Ph remains constant will be answere by 99% of people with 'I do nothing'

I would very much doubt that anyone on here tests their Ph that often.

Whilst the article is true from what I know r.e. the ammonia>ammonium>ammonia temperature and Ph relationship its not something we worry about.

AC

 

[mark4785]

TPN+ has ammonium nitrate in it. No ammonia as far as I know!!!

The test I did definitely showed Total Ammonia increasing to 4ppm (of which was 0.021 ppm of NH3) after adding TPN+ (see photocopied a4 paper above). It also added 30 ppm of nitrate.

 

[ian]

Ammonium does register on off the shelf test kits. Also, the nitrate test kits are really unreliable as you're aware. As Andy states try not to worry about it to much.

also, an interesting read from the articles.

 

[mark4785]

Just thought I'd update everybody with the situation of my planted tank.

I've managed to remove the BGA. Unfortunately green hair algae is thriving at the moment. It's attacking the foilage of my Anubias sp. nana (I've removed 80% of the foilage which it was attached to). Various other plants have bits of hair algae forming on them too so I've removed them and the Anubias and placed them in a 10 litre bucket containing 10ml of Easycarbo.

I've resorted to spot-dosing the surface it is growing on. The filter box, some wires and the back pane of glass is covered in hair algae and from there it is making contact with plants and growing on them. The spot-dosing is effective but it will take weeks/months to spot-dose all of the infected surfaces.

I'm doing the following, which is supposed to remove the hair-algae, but isn't:

1. twice weekly waterchanges (Monday and Thursday)
2. Spot-dosing Easycarbo.
3. Two 4000k HO T5 tubes (instead of 1x 4000k and a 16000k) means less powerful light.
4. Reduced photo-period to 6 hours instead of 8.
5. Reduced temperature to 27 degrees C.

Clearly I'm doing something wrong for this hair-algae to begin growing. Is 'excess nutrients' the main problem and if so what exactly do I do to tackle the 'excess nutrients' problem. I thought it implied too many macro-nutrients, but we all know what happens when I drop my macro-doses (I get BGA!).

edit: one thing I thought I'd add is the fact that planting is sparse down to the following reasons:

1. I was told on this forum that dense planting can be detrimental to waterflow, hindering the delivery of C02 and nutrients to some of the plants.
2. LFS doesn't have many plants in stock!
3. Various websites I visit don't have many plants in stock either!

 

[lljdma06]

I still say you should add more plants then increase flow to compensate. The "added plantmass can be detrimental to flow" isnt coming from me.

 

[mbsqw1d]

3. Two 4000w HO T5 tubes (instead of 1x 4000w and a 16000w) means less powerful light.

how many watts?

The reason I have had an outbreak of algae recently is because I let the CO2 run dry. (Ive been getting lazy!)

I believe another cause is when the substrate has been disturbed. I have a sand substrate that I havent touched for at least 6 months. (I dont even vac it, just syphon water from about half way up when doing changes).

Would you consider a sand substrate?

If you'd like to try some Dwarf Sag (Sagittaria Subulata) in your tank, I have plenty going spare I can send you! (PM me your addy if you do)

Whats your co2 setup and regime. Do you 'mess' about with it much? or is it a nice constant supply?

 

[lljdma06]

Mark means color temp not Watts!

At least that's what I hope he means. Man, imagine 8000w!!

 

[mbsqw1d]

Mark means color temp not Watts!

At least that's what I hope he means. Man, imagine 8000w!!

He'd have more of a moth issue than algae!