Why Hasn't The Advice Changed?

[ellena]

It's a constant repeating theme on these forums (and I've only been here a fortnight!) people being given the advice 'run the filter for a few days, then start adding fish'.
I know this is how it was done for years, but with a great deal of care about the fish chosen and water changes presumably?
Tanks are even marketed with 'just add water and fish'.
Should it be allowed strictly?

 

[hollanda88]

It's a constant repeating theme on these forums (and I've only been here a fortnight!) people being given the advice 'run the filter for a few days, then start adding fish'.
I know this is how it was done for years, but with a great deal of care about the fish chosen and water changes presumably?
Tanks are even marketed with 'just add water and fish'.
Should it be allowed strictly?

It is really annoying, all the plug and play tanks say the same, and its to do with sales. A lot of people wont buy a tank if they think it will be hard work, so therefore the companies make it sound easy "Just add water and wait a week before adding loads of fish". But if one company did tell it as it is they wont sell anything so they wont be around for long.

wish it could change

 

[fatheadminnow]

Agree^^

Hey ellena!

They run form a financial standpoint, not the well being of the fish.

I am not going to elaborate on this topic.

-FHM

 

[ellena]

So is this how it goes-buy fish, fish die, give up on fishkeeping. Shop is happy as they sold a tank and some fish.
V. sad

 

[youngfisher]

Very True ellena!

Most people just care about money, not the fish. Yet it is different with things like dogs, cats, etc.

Maybe its because of the size of them?

Uh, its so annoying. I feel like putting them in a tank with basically poision in it, see how they like it!

 

[hollanda88]

So is this how it goes-buy fish, fish die, give up on fishkeeping. Shop is happy as they sold a tank and some fish.
V. sad

Yeah its a common misconseption (if you work in a shop that sells fish you will constantly be told by numpties that fish live for 3 months) that fish live short lives, so people don't give up on them they jsut think thats how it is. They buy the tank and some fish, 6 months down the line they have all died, restock and carry on

 

[three-fingers]

It's for three reasons:

1. People get very put off with the idea of having to wait a few weeks.
2. Fish-in cycles generally work very well if done right (though it's not really a nice experiance for the fish).
3. Most pet store employees don't know/care.

.

I always give people the option, but tbh I don't mind fish-in cycles if they are done right (using hardy fish, either mature media or a bottled product, in some cases something like seachem prime and lots of water changes).

I usually end up with people doing a semi-fishless cycle.

For example,running everything at a slightly higher temperature with a prawn or something in the water for a week while adding a bottled bacteria product, then doing a near 100% water change before adding hardy fish and doing daily water changes for a week.

 

[crazychris]

I've seen my dealer sell tanks and fish at the same time and he says there's no need to "cycle" but just add conditioner and start with only a few fish.

 

[Truck]

you cant make money without bending the truth, its as simple as that

 

[three-fingers]

I've seen my dealer sell tanks and fish at the same time and he says there's no need to "cycle" but just add conditioner and start with only a few fish.

Well he doesnt know what "cycle" means then. The tank will still cycle, it will just be a fish-in cycle.

He's certainly heard of new tank syndrome, and I'm sure his customers know about it too .

 

[Anna Robinson]

This is a subject often discussed. Here in the UK Practical Fishkeeping did an 'undercover survey' and 'revealed' that most shops do not recommend fish-less cycling. Although I understand completely the objections people have to fish shops, and agree with many of them, I must say that this attitude - that it's all the shop's fault they don't recommend fish-less cycling and that they are quite happy to kill animals for money - makes me very angry.

For a start, while there regrettably are fish professionals who are happy for fish to die if they are making more money, it isn't the majority who are like that. It simply isn't human nature. If you go into a fish shop, the staff there are the ones caring for those fish - they feed them, they clean them out, they spend their working days with these animals. They are usually at least interested in fishkeeping, or they wouldn't be working there in the first place. They really aren't happy to see those fish go out the door to their deaths - quite the contrary. And even if the person is motivated solely by money, people whose fish always die won't keep coming back to spend, not after the first couple of times.

They don't recommend fish-less cycling either because they don't have the knowledge themselves (which is unfortunate, but is a separate issue) or because the customer can't understand it or will not do it. Fishkeeping enthusiasts simply don't understand what many of the general public are like. It is often extremely difficult for the employee to get the customer to do a fish-in cycle, i.e. add fish slowly. Even if it is pointed out that fish may suffer, die, etc, the person will quite often say "Oh, I'll see how they go and if they die I'll get some more". It is virtually impossible to get most people to do a fish-less cycle. They will have to buy ammonia, test kits, etc, and basically spend out money and take time on an aquarium which will have no fish in it (and will therefore give no pleasure or interest) for about a month. They will also have to have a basic grasp of the nitrogen cycle. They simply won't do it.

And the point is, if the employee tries to recommend fish-less cycling unsuccessfully, they then have less of a chance to get the customer to do a proper fish-in cycle. The customer listens, doesn't like the sound of of how complicated and time-consuming and scientific it sounds, and invariably just goes back to saying "I'll put some fish in now and see how they do". Whereas, if the employee starts off recommending a fish-in cycle "Add your fish very slowly" they have a better chance of getting the customer to agree.

The bottom line is, we need a better understanding of good fishkeeping among the general public. It's easy to blame shops or wholesalers or manufacturers, but that doesn't really get us anywhere. If you buy some chicken from the supermarket, don't cook it properly, and give yourself food poisoning, is it the supermarket's fault? Because they didn't tell you how to cook it? No, of course not. People need to take responsibility for knowing how to look after their own animals.

What we should be aiming for is a better understanding of fishkeeping among the general public.

 

[karigupi]

I'm a relative newbie to fishkeeping (but I read alot) it seems that a fishless cycle is a very modern concept,alot of the books I read during my first couple of weeks, still give details on how to do a fish in cycle, hopefully as more people come into the hobby & use the huge internet resources,more people will understand the process & will educate others.

I think that its something which will evolve over time & will hopefully become a standard advice in the not too distant future.

The best we can do as is help others to understand a fishless cycle & help those who end up with a fish in cycle to look after their fish as best as possible, I think alot of us were there once & learnt the hard way.

You may find that there are issues as well, regarding advising using ammonia, its not a nice or 'safe' product to use, people may well come back after having a bad experience & start all the legal balls rolling, you have to be so careful these days.

 

[Honeythorn]

People new to fishkeeping not being interested in doing a fishless cycle I can understand. It's a hellish amount of faffing about. Which is why I've said for some time that since fish stores are going to continue reccomending fish-in cycles, they could at least sell the customer some mature media from a healthy display tank in the store if it's a brand new set up the customer is wanting to stock.

That way the fish get a kickstarted cycle with something that will be far more likely to work,and the media can be sold for a similar price as a small bottle of cycle so a profit will still be made. Cycle is well known for being absolutely useless, and if the stores supposedly care so much for the fish that they do not wish for them to die in their new homes, then selling portions of mature media makes more sense, as not only do they get the money they need, but the fish get a better chance of survival.

This can be sold to the customer, along with a free small, concise booklet on why mature media and filters are needed, how they are of benefit to the fish, what the nitrogen cycle is, basic stuff ect.

 

[waterdrop]

This is a subject often discussed. Here in the UK Practical Fishkeeping did an 'undercover survey' and 'revealed' that most shops do not recommend fish-less cycling. Although I understand completely the objections people have to fish shops, and agree with many of them, I must say that this attitude - that it's all the shop's fault they don't recommend fish-less cycling and that they are quite happy to kill animals for money - makes me very angry.

For a start, while there regrettably are fish professionals who are happy for fish to die if they are making more money, it isn't the majority who are like that. It simply isn't human nature. If you go into a fish shop, the staff there are the ones caring for those fish - they feed them, they clean them out, they spend their working days with these animals. They are usually at least interested in fishkeeping, or they wouldn't be working there in the first place. They really aren't happy to see those fish go out the door to their deaths - quite the contrary. And even if the person is motivated solely by money, people whose fish always die won't keep coming back to spend, not after the first couple of times.

They don't recommend fish-less cycling either because they don't have the knowledge themselves (which is unfortunate, but is a separate issue) or because the customer can't understand it or will not do it. Fishkeeping enthusiasts simply don't understand what many of the general public are like. It is often extremely difficult for the employee to get the customer to do a fish-in cycle, i.e. add fish slowly. Even if it is pointed out that fish may suffer, die, etc, the person will quite often say "Oh, I'll see how they go and if they die I'll get some more". It is virtually impossible to get most people to do a fish-less cycle. They will have to buy ammonia, test kits, etc, and basically spend out money and take time on an aquarium which will have no fish in it (and will therefore give no pleasure or interest) for about a month. They will also have to have a basic grasp of the nitrogen cycle. They simply won't do it.

And the point is, if the employee tries to recommend fish-less cycling unsuccessfully, they then have less of a chance to get the customer to do a proper fish-in cycle. The customer listens, doesn't like the sound of of how complicated and time-consuming and scientific it sounds, and invariably just goes back to saying "I'll put some fish in now and see how they do". Whereas, if the employee starts off recommending a fish-in cycle "Add your fish very slowly" they have a better chance of getting the customer to agree.

The bottom line is, we need a better understanding of good fishkeeping among the general public. It's easy to blame shops or wholesalers or manufacturers, but that doesn't really get us anywhere. If you buy some chicken from the supermarket, don't cook it properly, and give yourself food poisoning, is it the supermarket's fault? Because they didn't tell you how to cook it? No, of course not. People need to take responsibility for knowing how to look after their own animals.

What we should be aiming for is a better understanding of fishkeeping among the general public.

We've had many, many very long threads on this subject here on TFF. I've enjoyed doing searches and going back and reading many of them. Thanks for your post Anna, it strikes me as one of the more thoughtful ones I've seen and presents a bit of a different angle that I think is good.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[three-fingers]

They don't recommend fish-less cycling either because they don't have the knowledge themselves (which is unfortunate, but is a separate issue) or because the customer can't understand it or will not do it. Fishkeeping enthusiasts simply don't understand what many of the general public are like. It is often extremely difficult for the employee to get the customer to do a fish-in cycle, i.e. add fish slowly. Even if it is pointed out that fish may suffer, die, etc, the person will quite often say "Oh, I'll see how they go and if they die I'll get some more". It is virtually impossible to get most people to do a fish-less cycle. They will have to buy ammonia, test kits, etc, and basically spend out money and take time on an aquarium which will have no fish in it (and will therefore give no pleasure or interest) for about a month. They will also have to have a basic grasp of the nitrogen cycle. They simply won't do it.

That whole post was an excellent, and accurate IME write up!