When To Stop Siphoning

[metulburr]

At what point do you stop siphoning? Is the goal to get everything that is visable? 
 
I just did my fist siphoning a week after having a new tank and it is gross. I got about 10% of the water out while doing it, and the rocks seemed to have never ending crud in it. I would of kept going but i think i would not be satisfied until the tank was empty.
 
How do you know when enough is enough for the bottom?

 

[hudsona85]

Hello and welcome!
 
I can't help but wonder after reading your post of how many fish you have in your tank and reading this post if your tank has been cycled yet. It's very possible that you are over feeding your fish as well. It's also possible depending on how  big your tank is that you are adding too many fish at one time. If you have not done the fish-less cycle and are doing the cycle with fish in it, you definitely have too many fish in the tank and will cause a deadly increase of ammonia along with the amount of foods you are giving to the fish. If this is the case 10% water changes will be no where close to being enough to relieve the ammonia build-up. 
 
First of all, feeding the amount of food needs to be cut down at least half and also cut down how many times per day.
I would consider skipping a day or 2 of feeding, especially if you are trying to siphon out excess foods from the bottom.
If you are cycling your tank I would advise not to vac the gravel as you are killing of the bacteria needed to cycle the tank.
I also suggest you test your water to see if there is a spike in ammonia, nitrite, or nitrates.

 

[metulburr]

I did little research, bought the tank, bought the fish, and then once the fish were in the tank i did more research to find out about fishless cycling. At that point i crossed my fingers and hoped that the fish were quicken the process and they dont die. 
 
The amount of fish are in the other post

 
TWO currently small silver dollars about 2 1/2 inches long
FIVE african dwarf frogs (small in size, about an inch long)
TWO neon tetras
ONE red wag platy
ONE black molly
ONE dalmatian molly
ONE kuhli loach (small in diameter, like a string)
ONE algae eater ( i am not sure for the name. The receipt says algae eater. It is not a plecostomus)

 
and it is a 30 gallon tank. Yes i know. I didnt know at the time of buying the silver dollars that they would need so much space when they grow. It has a 200 watt heater i just bought, as the one i had died yesterday. The filter is a 20-40 gallon from walmart. 
 
 
I have Jungle quick dip test strips. I checked yesterday and everything looked good. There is no exact reading, but color comparisons. 
 
water hardness GH 300 ppm
nitrate near 0
nitrite near 0 also
KH ppm 300
pH somehwere between 7.2 and 7.8 
Its hard to tell the colors but that is about what the charts say for the colors on the test strip
 
 

 
 
If you have not done the fish-less cycle and are doing the cycle with fish in it, you definitely have too many fish in the tank and will cause a deadly increase of ammonia along with the amount of foods you are giving to the fish

 
So at this point i am kicking myself in the a** for not researching before buying the fish. Now that i have them, do i need to do more than normal water changes to account for this increase of ammonia?
 
 
In addition, i bought a 5 gallon tank. In that i have a male crowntail betta, and a single dwarf frog in that. They seem to be OK together. And i just noticed that the betta just made a bubble nest yesterday. I also plopped these into the tank brand new with no cycling.
 
In both tanks, the rocks did not look bad at all. I was just kinda testing the siphon. I was just surpised at all the poop and food that came up with it. 

 

[hudsona85]

30gal is way too small for the Silver Dollars especially when they need to be in a school. They do better in at least 55gallons or bigger. Some of the fish you have are made for hard water and others are for softer water. Your "live-bearers" do much better in hard water. Perhaps you can take some of the fish back where ever it came from? Whoever sold you these fish seemed like they didn't have your best interest in mind but more so what was in your wallet... Hate to say it.
If you plan to keep the fish you currently have, I would strongly advise getting a better filter system as the fish will make the bio-load crash. In other words the live bacteria will not be enough to support the fish in there since there is too much waste in the tank for the bacteria to consume them. I suggest (just as most aquarist will on here) doubling the filtration. I have a 55gal and have the AquaClear that is rated to filter up to 110 gallons. It makes for better filtration and handles the bio-load. Hence, having too many fish in a tank to cycle with is simply dangerous without the aid of bacteria to consume the Ammonia.
This is a good read to start with: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421488-cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first/
The waste that is being produced in the tank could have an indication as to how much you are feeding the fish. If you are over feeding the fish, you will notice it right off the bat. Smaller Fish really don't need much food to survive. Take in account of the size of the stomach of a neon tetra for example. Their stomach is small enough to possibly take only a small flake of food. At most they only grow 2 inches. If they eat too much, the stomach will expand too much and eventually split the scales and pop out. That goes for any fish.
As far as having test strips I would stay away from them. As you can already tell from the measurements you posted, they are not very accurate. A decent liquid test kit will give you better readings. API has test kits that can be offered with pH, high pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrates. Of course they are not as accurate as more expensive ones but certainly do a better job than test strips.
As far as your setup for the 5 gallon tank, you may or may not be ok with the male betta. Male Bettas are typically more aggressive. There is a forum on this site specifically for bettas that you can read up on that can help.
Hope this helps.

 

[metulburr]

I do have a second 20-40 gallon filter system. I opted for this other one though because i had trouble cleaning the algae off of it. The tubes are clear and all you see is green. Would this be a problem to use?
 
Do i really have so much fish that i need to double the filtration or is that a general rule to double it?
 
Thanks for the info i will look into it.

 

[NickAu]

 
Its hard to tell the colors but that is about what the charts say for the colors on the test strip

Test strips are not accurate you would be better off with a liquid test like the API freshwater master kit.
 
 

 
TWO neon tetras
ONE red wag platy
ONE black molly
ONE dalmatian molly
ONE kuhli loach (small in diameter, like a string)

Kuhli Loaches Silver Dollars and Tetras prefer soft water, While Mollies prefer hard, I do not know about the frog or algae eater.

 

[hudsona85]

I do have a second 20-40 gallon filter system. I opted for this other one though because i had trouble cleaning the algae off of it. The tubes are clear and all you see is green. Would this be a problem to use?
 
Do i really have so much fish that i need to double the filtration or is that a general rule to double it?
 
Thanks for the info i will look into it.

I would also consider the placement of your tank which may be contributing to your algae issue along with how long you are leaving your lights on.
 
You can use both filters but I would suggest something of use where you can have and keep good bacteria in it. The carbon media that you buy in the store can be used but I would put  ceramic or bio balls in the other filter system. That way it will keep your beneficial bacteria in the tank. I can understand why it does not make sense to have "just enough" filtration vs having more than enough.
 
It may seem costly but in the long run will reduce future headaches. Some fish produce more waste than others. I have 2 Opaline Gourami that make more waste than my pleco! Every set up is going to be difference of course.
 
I honestly would just take the fish back if you can, do your research first, and then determine what you may need. Planning goes a long way with setting up your tanks. As already mentioned, you have issues with hard and soft water fishes being together. One of the 2 bunches will eventually die if the matter is not already taken care of.

 

[metulburr]

 
 
I would also consider the placement of your tank which may be contributing to your algae issue along with how long you are leaving your lights on.

I dont have an algae issue. The tank i set up is a week old. The tank and filtration unit was used. I cleaned the tank, but didnt clean the filter as well because i had a new one.  The person before me killed their fish and had a massive algae problem. I dont see any algae a week in. I also turn off the lights at night. 
 
One of the ADF died today. I dont know why. It seems like they dont get the food, that all the fish eat the food before the frogs get any. 
 
So after that I have set up the second filtration unit. I have the poly fiber batting, with the carbon from the store to make homemade filters. So now i have two 20-40 gallon filters for the 30 gallon tank. 

 

[NickAu]

 
One of the ADF died today. I dont know why.

I can take a guess.
 
The Dwarf African Frog should be housed in an established aquarium, In my opinion established means at least 8 weeks after your tank is cycled.
 
I suspect the Kuhli Loach will be next.

 

[metulburr]

Are you suppose to siphon the tank bottom when fish-in cycling or avoid it? OR are you just siphoning the water out to put new water in?
 
Ive already bought the fish. So at this point i would prefer to do a fish-in cycle. However the fish in cycle "tutorials" dont mention about siphoning duting the cycle. They only specify after it is done. 

 

[metulburr]

I just did a 30% water change on both my tanks

 

[hudsona85]

If you HAVE to siphon the bottom, I would rather take a net to remove the excess waste. Tampering with the gravel while cycling can disturb and eventually kill off the bacteria. I made the mistake of doing that with the first 10 gallon tank thinking I am helping it and the tank ended up never cycling until I started to some research and found many mistakes I made.
 
If you have a local LFS (Local Fish Store) (preferably mom and pop kind of store with people who know what they are doing) around you to give you something that has beneficial bacteria already established. This will really help you cycle your tank. If this is not possible, I consider getting SeaChem stability or if you can afford it, (from what I hear since I have not tried this works really really well) DrTIms Aquatics One and Only. Also, testing the water very consistently will help you figure out if you are on the right path or not.
 
Hope this helps.

 

[metulburr]

Thanks. 
 
Yes i do have a mom and pops shop nearby. I will go ask them for some filters. Thanks al ot.