What The, No Ammonia?

[twistedlink]

I went into 4 fish stores today, and asked if i could buy any ammonia ADDING products for a fishless cycle, they looked at me weird and said "no, you have it the wrong way round, you need to keep ammonia low"

I said i knew that, but the beneficial bacteria dont appear from nowhere, and it takes a few weeks of ammonia-nitrite conversions before an fast and effective amount of ammonia-nitrite can be converted into nitrate.

They all said water changes will be sufficient and that adding chemicals to lower ammonia and nitrite help

None of them had actual ammonia to add for fishless cycling

can i get my hands on some generic ammonia from a non fish store?

 

[Lateral Line]

They all said water changes will be sufficient and that adding chemicals to lower ammonia and nitrite help

Sadly, my comment is "well they would say that wouldn't they". They want you to buy fish now and some other chemicals and nonsense. It amazes me that ammonia is not available in fish shops - I guess there is a lot less profit in a bottle of ammonia then a dozen dead fish and some nitrozorb.

From what I found out, many brands of household ammonia are simply that, a solution of ammonia in water, and hence okay to use. Read the label and see if the product has any other listed ingredients.

 

[Colin_T]

if you can't get ammonia then use a piece of white bait or prawn. You can even use dry fish pellets. Just put some in and let them rot. Then try to keep the ammonia levels about 5ppm. If they get higher than that do a water change to bring it down. Once the tank has cycled do a gravel clean and massive water change before adding fish.

 

[Davo86]

Hardly any fish stores will sell ammonia, This may be because in many large chain stores staff are told to reccommend fish in cycles.

You should be able to easily pick up a bottle of ammonia from your local B&Q or focus store

 

[Luketendo]

Boots do ammonia.

 

[tigermoth2]

Homebase sell ammonia as well - £1.99 for a bottle of 10% ammonia solution.
Bob

 

[waterdrop]

Homebase sell ammonia as well - £1.99 for a bottle of 10% ammonia solution.
Bob

In my reading, this is the source most often replied to as having been successful for UK people.

In the US the huge grocery stores we have will usually have it.

Also you probably already know it but no one mentioned that the trick is to (in order):
1) Look for ammonia bottle with no color (thus no dye)
2) Shake the bottle. You want only bubbles, no foam that would indicate soaps.
3) Study all the text and reject it if it says anything other than ammonia and water (often it will say nothing of the ingredients though)

Be persistent and good luck! waterdrop

if you can't get ammonia then use a piece of white bait or prawn. You can even use dry fish pellets. Just put some in and let them rot. Then try to keep the ammonia levels about 5ppm. If they get higher than that do a water change to bring it down. Once the tank has cycled do a gravel clean and massive water change before adding fish.

Hello again Professor!
I'm still curious about what's behind the 5-6ppm upper limit recommendation I keep seeing. The only possible tidbit I've heard is that "more bad bacteria are encouraged" by levels of ammonia higher than that.

Is that right? Is it wrong? Is there more to the story?

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Rooster]

I would use ammonia ONLY.... using deadbait or fishflakes is a recipe for tears (you are adding more than just ammonia - which is a byproduct anyway)

The golden figure comes from the idea that too much ammonia is toxic (why is it sold ? TO KILL GERMS !) and too little will "starve" the bacteria... so theres an ideal figure, although I believe this is less critical than most folk would have you believe.

I go for the "counting drops" method - always worked for me.

 

[backtotropical]

Hi,

I posted this in your other thread too, but i'm here now.

Fish shops generally don't sell bottles of ammonia. Boots can be tricky to get ammonia from. It seems that only some of their stores stock it. Homebase is your best bet in my opinion. It's called @Household Ammonia' and you'll find it beside the cleaning products.

I'm still curious about what's behind the 5-6ppm upper limit recommendation I keep seeing. The only possible tidbit I've heard is that "more bad bacteria are encouraged" by levels of ammonia higher than that.

Hi Waterdrop,

The encouragement of 'bad bacteria' isn't quite right.

What actually happens is that when ammonia reaches a certain level (i believe the level to be around 8ppm, but will most likely depend on other factors), it will encourage the growth of alternative types of bacteria. These bacteria are still ammonia and nitrite oxidising bacteria, so will cycle the filter just the same, but they require a higher concentration of ammonia to sustain their growth.

These bacteria are not desireable in our tanks because as the ammonia level drops, they will die off leaving an uncycled filter. At that point, the common nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacterias found in our aquariums will take over, but will not be sufficiently cultured to deal with the bio-load. Hence, ammonia and nitrite spikes.

In essence, the encouragement of the growth of these alternative bacteria is detrimental to the growth of the desired bacteria, as they will compete for food.

Avoiding the growth of these alternative bacteria by keeping the ammonia level too low for them ensures that the correct bacteria colonise our filters, which in turn ensures that our filters stay 'cycled'.

Also, at even higher ammonia concentrations, i believe the ammonia can start to 'sterilise' the tank and inhibit the growth of the desireable bacteria.

HTH

BTT

 

[jgray152]

I also spoke to a LFS about the fishless cycle. Told them im going to add pure ammonia into my 180gal to cycle it. Should have seen the #### look on her face. She than started to point me at chemicals to control ammonia and I told her I don't need that and the ammonia is to help the tank cycle and I don't want any dead fish from ammonia spikes. She than says that if I keep the PH low that ammonia will turn into ammonium which is less toxic to fish. I ended the conversation quickly cause I didn't want to correct her as she is an elderly lady that owns the pet store....

 

[Colin_T]

Hello again Professor!
I'm still curious about what's behind the 5-6ppm upper limit recommendation I keep seeing. The only possible tidbit I've heard is that "more bad bacteria are encouraged" by levels of ammonia higher than that.

LOL, he called me Professor
It's not Professor, its Doctor.
Doctor Who?
Precisely
At high ammonia levels the beneficial bacteria stop growing and die and the ammonia stays high. The tank does not cycle. The tank will stay like that for months and nothing will happen until the levels come down.
The ammonia levels just get too high for the species involved and goes beyond their tolerance limit.

I would use ammonia ONLY.... using deadbait or fishflakes is a recipe for tears (you are adding more than just ammonia - which is a byproduct anyway)

Why do you say whitebait and fishfood will cause more problems?
You put fish food in the tank to feed the fish and that gets converted to ammonia. If the food is left uneaten on the bottom of the tank the ammonia levels will go up as well.
A piece of whitebait in the tank is the same as having a fish die in the tank. Except I consider it cleaner than most freshwater fish. The bait will have been frozen and that kills most of the diseases off. If a guppy or goldfish dies in the tank all those lovely parasites and nasty bacteria living on it are then released into the water to contaminate the other fish. Albeit they are probably already carrying them anyway. At least the whitebait is somewhat more sterile than a live fish.
Obviously it's preferred to use liquid ammonia but if you can't obtain any, then use whatever is avaliable.

 

[waterdrop]

BTT, Colin, Many Thanks! Finally that question is answered (and boy am I glad my green didn't look too evergreen in color tonight (that make sense?))

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Colin_T]

simpsons humor I hope

 

[Lateral Line]

She than says that if I keep the PH low that ammonia will turn into ammonium which is less toxic to fish.

That is true. in a low pH environment, the dissolved NH3 picks up one of the surplus H+ ions to form ionic NH4+ which IS less toxic then dissolved NH3 as it is already protonated, therefore less reactive. The thing is, how much less toxic, and the answer is "not hugely so".