What kind of fish can I keep with my angelfish?

[Crusader13]

Pretty much what the title says. I just want to know what kind of fish I could keep with 5 angelfish. I'm aware that they're a shoaling fish so I've decided on a 75 gallon tank. I would really like to have a community orientated tank with lots of color, plenty of bottom feeders to eat the algae and many live plants. I've done google search after google search and have done much research and the most prevalent tank mates for angelfish I've seen seem to be plecos, cory cats, tetras, mollies, platies, and swordtails, but I didn't want to decide on how many I wanted because I just wasn't sure about stocking.

I know there's a general rule of having 1 gallon for every inch of maximum size fish, but I didn't want to rely on that because I felt that there was too much margin of error, and I really, really, really don't want to waste my money this time around because I stopped fish keeping a few years ago cause it felt like no matter what I did my fish died. Granted, I was a kid and I was too naive to do my research, and if I did, the information was too much for me to understand lol.

Which brings me here because I could really use a second opinion, and everyone here seems extremely knowledgeable. I've read most of the stickies regarding cycling and the nitrogen cycle and I plan on doing a fishless cycle prior to adding any fish to my aquarium. I pretty much have everything figured out except for what kind of fish to keep with my angels and how many. I mean, I kind of decided to keep bristlenose plecos, cory catfish, lyretail mollies and swordtails, etc., but I'd really prefer a second opinion because I'll be the first to admit: idk wtf im doing haha.

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

What do you think made you fail the last time you had fish? Did you fail to cycle your tank? Did you stop cleaning it or did you just purchase too many fish or incompatible fish.

I think that's kind of a hard question. Angelfish are semi-aggressive which means you have to be very careful who you mix them with. The other thing - they like a low PH 5.8-7.0 and most of the freshwater fish you see prefer a PH closer to 7-8. As far as the cory's and catfish they'll probably will be ok with a semi-aggressive fish - mine are usually left alone unless the aggressive fish has no other target. If you're getting 5 multi-color angelfish you might want to add 3 solid color fish that are 5-6" in size. Most of the LARGE gourami's meet the semi-aggressive criteria (all the dwarf varieties are peaceful), there are some good colors but the PH is too low for them. (In fact you'd better check the PH of your water at home to make sure these fish will work with your water or if you're going to make attempts to chemically lower it (that's what I do, but I sure wish my City had a much lower PH (it's 9.4) because changing it can be tricky - although I've never killed a fish - then due to water hardness and other factors PH just doesn't stay stable from day to day.

I found this fish:
Gold Severum
https://www.liveaquaria.com/product/922/gold-severum?pcatid=922&c=830+922

Three of these to go with your 5 Angelfish would be very pretty. There is also this fish that may come from a nearby place as some of the angelfish:

https://www.liveaquaria.com/product/916/green-texas-cichlid?pcatid=916&c=830+916

I like the Red Parrot Fish but it says it can be easily bullied by other semi-aggressive fish - I don't know how aggressive angelfish are but if they are pretty laid back - this combo would work:

https://www.liveaquaria.com/product/1599/red-parrot?pcatid=1599&c=830+1599

Once you find your complimentary fish then start picking out cory's or catfish that are ok with low PH water: There are a ton of species so that should be easy. As far as your bristlenose pleco - I love them too but they are very easily intimidated shy fish - in fact all the plecos are peaceful and shy so you may have unhappy fish on your hands if they are going to get picked on Now some of the loaches are semi-aggressive and even the peaceful ones are fairly assertive that they should be ok - they can handle the lower PH. They prefer caves, just like most of the ground dwelling fish.

Again, I'd check the PH of your water and make sure that will work for you and think long if this is the must -have fish that you want as opposed to something easier to match fish with. Because you'll be living with this mix for a long time. If they fish don't get along or one is constantly getting picked on they will be very stressed fish and if they are living in the wrong PH their organs will be stresed and they won't live as long. I guess for community tanks where you have fishes of different colors, species and sizes I would recommend getting all peaceful fish (that way you know that nobody will get eaten)

Oh BTW - I too did fishless cycling, I did a beautiful job with each of my tanks and they behaved just as expected but once I added fish I lost my entire cycling and have been trying to get it back on track forever since. So WHATEVER YOU DO NOT add more than 3 fish at a time. Let your bacteria grow up with your tank - if you get the fish and put 15 in all at one time you'll overwhelm your cycling bacteria and it will all fall apart. In my case, Ammonia doesn't want to convert in to Nitrites anymore. By using a water conditioner like Prime every two days, you can keep Ammonia in it's non-toxic state of ammonium but your test will keep telling you your ammonia is too high. If you fail to keep the water conditioned it can revert to toxic ammonia and a lot of dead fish.

As far as number of fish the rule was sort of "1" per gallon - so 5 angelfish would be about 25 gallons, then 15 gallons in size of complementary fish leaving you another 20 or so gallons (depending on decorations) for the remainder. It's not a bad rule but it doesn't always work - I have a 29 gallon tank with all my 6 semi-aggressive fish all were estimated to be 5" in size, problem is MOST are now 6" and one is 8" long - way longer than his identical "brother" and that tank is now over stocked - they have room to swim but it looks so BORING for them - they would be so much more comfortable in a bigger tank. But with mixed sizes of fishes I think I can go a little over the 1" per gallon because they swim at different levels of the tank and the different sizes make it so no one group is out of place. But you should be fine you your large tank you have plenty of room as long as you don't go overboard and buy all the fish you listed like platy's, molly's, swordfish etc.

 

[Essjay]

I kind of decided to keep bristlenose plecos, cory catfish, lyretail mollies and swordtails, etc.,

There is a problem with this combination - angelfish, bristlenoses, and cories are soft water fish while mollies and swordtails are hard water fish. Depending on how hard your water is, one or other group will suffer. Hardness is more important than pH.

You definitely want angelfish. The first thing is to find out the hardness of your tap water. Look on your water provider's website to see if they give it. You need a number and the unit of measurement rather than some vague words. If you have hard water, you can dilute it with some form of 'pure' water to make it safe for angelfish. We can discuss this if you do have hard water.

As for tankmates, you need to avoid small fish, particularly ones that are torpedo shaped as angels will be able to eat them once they have grown. Tank mates should be big enough to escape being eaten, or deep bodied.
Active fish should be avoided as they will stress angels. Look for sedate tank mates.
These will narrow your options. Look at your local shops and make a note of the fish that catch your eye. Then check on https://www.seriouslyfish.com/knowledge-base/ for their hardness range, activity level etc, or ask on here.

 

[Metalhead88]

I would absolutely not add other semi aggressive cichlids like severum or parrots.

Angel fish have long fins that are easy to bite and are slow moving. They do best with fish that are less aggressive then they are.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

Very good point Metalhead. I have a peaceful community tank, yet one of my little zebra danio's ate all the fins off of one of my dwarf gourami. He also proceeded to kill all of his "school mates" except one (which I accidentally killed when I dropped a lid on him during a water change (yikes). Without his mates he has seemed to have lost his aggression but I would NEVER put an angelfish in the same tank with him.

I think the OP should re-think the entire angelfish idea - to me they just have too many issues to deal with unless you want nothing but a tankful of angelfish. Especially since he is essentially a beginner. Start with something rated "peaceful" and you'll have much less tank stress and a bigger safer selection of fish. I love the look of cichlids but I only have one and she is actually less aggressive than my semi-aggressive gourami's - but they just all play dominance games - nobody has been injured or killed just a lot of body slamming each other. I keep them all in the same tank together and it works out well. My other tanks are all "peaceful" fish except that psycho zebra danio. Even then there are little dominance games that go on and a lot of head butting. But again, no injuries or deaths since mr. zebra settled down.

 

[Byron]

I agree with other posts here, the first thing is to ascertain your GH.

A group of five is the minimum number of angelfish, so good on that point, and a 75g will be fine too. Just keep in mind that if a pair forms--and discerning male/female in the small fish usually available in stores is frankly impossible unless you study their interactions for quite some time--they will spawn and this could mean trouble. A male angelfish in breeding mode will consider the entire tank space his, and if there are males in the other three, they may not last too long. Individual fish temperament can vary somewhat, but just be cognizant.

 

[Crusader13]

What do you think made you fail the last time you had fish? Did you fail to cycle your tank? Did you stop cleaning it or did you just purchase too many fish or incompatible fish.

I think it was a combination of all of these things. But back then I was just a kid so.

Sigh well this sucks. I really wanted angelfish because I just think they're absolutely gorgeous but if it's going to be so much of a pain to keep them with other fish, then idk at this point im even willing to go with tetras, even though they arent as colorful, except for maybe glowlights, but im not a big fan of them. as for gourami, i was really hoping to get the bigger ones, but theyre more aggressive, and i dont want the dwarfs cause theyre too small for my liking. so idk what to think of getting other than tetras or to just toss the angelfish idea

my water is pretty hard; about 124ppm and the ph levels are 7.4. if i wanted a tank with only 4 or 5 angelfish, how big would it have to be? are there any tetras that can tolerate similar water parameters as angelfish?

 

[Byron]

First, a GH of 134ppm (= 7 dGH) is not "pretty hard," it is moderately soft/hard, sort of in the middle. That opens more options. But it definitely excludes all livebearers (mollies, platies, swordtails as well as guppies and Endlers) as they must have harder water. However, there are many basically soft-water species that will do fine in this water.

Angelfiish are a shoaling species and a group will establish an hierarchy fairly quickly. There must be five (or more) in an aquarium or there is a very real probability that weaker fish will be bullied to death. Five (or more) tends to avoid this, usually, but individual fish can be contrary to the norm [fish do not read the scientific literature, unfortunately, lol]. But a group of five or even six in your 4-foot 75g tank would work. But as I mentioned previously, down the road things can change when a pair forms. We cannot alter the inherent DNA of a species, and it is wise to assume the fish will follow the norm rather than hope it is abnormal and somehow suits our situation. That rarely happens.

There are a lot of species that would be fine in your water parameters, and there are some that would be generally OK with angelfish.

Alternatives to angelfish could be the medium-sized gourami, like the Pearl Gourami. A shoal of five or seven of these in a 75g would be beautiful. Pealrs are usually not aggressive, and a 75g provides space to handle most of what might occur within the shoal. Quiet peaceful fish like some of the rasboras, or some of the tetras, would work. And substrate fish like Corydoras would not be a problem at all.

As another option, there are some larger shoaling fish among the tetras, thinking of the Bleeding Heart Tetra; a group of 9-12 in a 75g would be nice, with groups of other tetras and again Corydoras. Or one of the small or medium-sized loaches perhaps?

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

The Pearl Gourami is absolutely stunning to look at - I have 3 and they bump each other around a little but nothing serious.

Some of the Dwarf Gourami's are actually fairly large - certainly as large or larger than tetras with some exceptions (my little coffee gourami is less than an inch but very striking)
The powder blue is big, the Fire Gourami is fairly big - to me my Pearls are LARGE at about 6" but not aggressive and I have a large golden orange gourami that is about 5" not aggressive.

If you want some really unique looking fish take a look at the loach and plecto families (I don't think your water hardness/softness would be a big deal). My FAVORITE fish in the whole world is a Gold Dojo Loach - constant comedy followed by long naps - so beautiful too. I have 4 of them. Some of the smaller loaches (the black and white ones) actually make a strong color impression in the water so just because they are small doesn't mean you won't notice them. These have been the healthiest groups of fish that I own - never any deaths or illnesses. The Dojo can be quite friendly and eat from your hand (they nip a little when they get over-excited but it doesn't hurt. )

I also have two Lemon Bristlenose Pleco L-144, I think one male and one female - the male has gotten very large (about 6 inches) and has a ton of bristles, the female is about 3" and fewer bristles. Both are very good algae eaters (NEVER get Chinese Algae Eaters - peaceful when young then terribly aggressive when older even Wikipedia says "avoid at all costs".) I had to euthanize all of mine because of the high level of aggression - constantly trying to kill each other and other fish.

My Tomasi L188A pleco and my $130 Blue Phantom Pleco are both personality duds. All they do is hide - I have to remove just about everything in the tank just to find them. The Tomasi is the same color as my gravel. I had 3 but have only located 1 consistently and maybe a second, much smaller one. #3 I have no idea what happened. The Blue Phantom is a stunning but very slow growing fish - so they arrive at about 1 1/2" and after 6 months he's only about 2 1/2 inches - supposedly they eventually reach 7 inches over a period of years. Pretty but boring. All they do is hide and come out at night to eat.

I do have Tetra glofish in every color (I decided NOT to go with the Disney Castle or the Sponge Bob accessories - just kidding) I saw a couple pink ones at a fish store and just had to have them then ended up ordering all other colors. When they first arrived they followed my giant orange Gourami like she was their mother or something. She was NOT interested in babysitting but she put up with them following her everywhere. When mixed with other bright color species you don't notice that they are glofish - they just work with the other colors in the tank. I have so many oranges and yellows already - these fit right in. Get at least 5-7 of them, they stick together quite closely and are very sweet and easy to care for and very healthy. I think the story behind the genetically engineered glofish make them especially interesting.

There are just so many amazing peaceful fish available - so easy to care for and such a huge variety - take your time - cycle your tanks then only purchase a small number of fish at a time to allow your bacteria to keep up with the number of fish. My mistake was to add too many fish at once and it totally messed up my cycling - I've been fighting it every since. I'm finally starting to get some good bacteria that can handle the number of fish I have. So don't try to stock your tank all at once.

 

[Crusader13]

My only question at this point is about the livebearers. I’ve read site after site swearing up and down that they can handle a variety of water conditions. Is this not true? And if so, why?

In any case this is what I’ve decided on for now:

5 angelfish
5 pearl gourami
5 live plants
5 cories
5 bristle nose plecos

I’m more worried about the cost of supplies. It’s gonna cost me my entire paycheck just to get all this stuff But that’s not realistic because bills

 

[Essjay]

Anyone can set up a website and say things, whether they are accurate or not. The only reliable fish website is Seriously Fish. They give the hardness range that a fish can live comfortably in, and none of the livebearers can live comfortably in anything but hard water. They can survive for a time in soft water but they will not be healthy and will not live as long as they should.

It is always better to keep fish suited to the water.


I would not keep gouramis and angelfish in the same tank. Byron suggested pearl gouramis instead of angelfish, not with them.
Cories do better in larger groups.
I have no experience with bristlenoses - can 5 be kept in the same tank?

 

[Crusader13]

Oh I see. Hmm...I think I still might want to get 5 angelfish after all instead of ditching the idea entirely, to be honest. I might just go with 5 angelfish, 5 cories, 5 live plants, 5 snails and however many bristlenoses I can keep safely. It's not ideal, but at least I'll have angelfish. I have also seen Buenos aires tetra live with angelfish just fine...not as ideal either but may consider including them in my setup as well.

 

[Byron]

My only question at this point is about the livebearers. I’ve read site after site swearing up and down that they can handle a variety of water conditions. Is this not true? And if so, why?

No this is most certainly not true. There are two principle issues on which I'd like to comment. First, the reason as you asked for, and second why this nonsense about "handling a variety of water conditions" is so prevalent.

Freshwater fish species have evolved over thousands of years to function in a very specific environment. "Environment" here refers to water parameters (GH, KH, pH and temperature are the parameters) along with all aspects of the habitat from substrate to aspects like wood/rock to light to water flow to other species. The further away from this environment the fish become, the more difficulty they have to maintain their regular daily bodily functions, what we term the physiology and metabolism. Stress always results, and it increases as the fish are forced farther from their preference--which is not really a "preference" but a mandatory state.

Water continually enters the fish through every cell via osmosis, and at the gills. Every substance dissolved in the water thus enters the fish, into the bloodstream and internal organs. Fish like the livebearers that evolved in moderately hard water absolutely must have dissolved calcium and magnesium in the water, and these two minerals are the primary component of GH. Their physiology needs these minerals in the water in order to function properly. As one simple example, the fish must regulate the pH of its blood to match the pH of the water it lives in; as soon as the pH of the water moves outside the fish's preference, it has difficulty functioning. The stress weakens the fish's immune system, making it vulnerable to disease that it would (or should) normally be able to deal with without succumbing. Other problems ensue, further weakening the fish; energy that would otherwise be used for spawning, feeding, escaping predation, etc, is being wasted on keeping the poor fish alive. It will absolutely never reach its normal lifespan, as a direct result of all this.

Ichthyologists (fish biologists) who have studied fish species have determined general levels for GH. These studies are based upon the GH of their habitat waters as well as from studies using softer water that monitored the declining health of the fish and their shortened lifespan. The same works in reverse for soft water fish. A study in Germany inn the 1980's proved that the level of GH of the water was related to the lifespan of cardinal tetras; the higher the GH (meaning more dissolved mineral) the shorter the lifespan. Necropsy (autopsy of animals) showed calcium blockage of the kidneys, a condition that increased with the higher GH. There is no reason at all to doubt that this applies to all soft water species, albeit in differing degrees according to the species habitat.

Now to thee second disturbing issue...people claiming that this or that fish can handle a variety of water conditions. Each species as I explained above requires specific environmental conditions. There is a misconception in the hobby among some that somehow we can change the DNA of the species just by breeding it in tanks. Some species have an ability to adjust to some conditions, to some degree, but this ability can always be traced back to the species and its habitat. It is frankly cruel to force any fish to live in conditions that are not in line with what it needs to live properly. Dr. Paul Loiselle, an acknowledged authority in ichthyology, says it in the green citation in my signature block. I have this in my signature to constantly remind all of us. Fish are living creatures with individual needs and requirements, and anyone who disregards these should not be in this hobby because it is cruel and inhumane treatment of living creatures.

I would be happy to expand on any of this, or at least try to, if asked. I trust you can see the significance of water parameters and conditions on fish. The relationship of a fish to its environment is far more crucial than that of any terrestrial animal (amphibians possibly the exception). Their aquatic world is indeed unique, and evolution has designed them to function accordingly.

 

[Byron]

Oh I see. Hmm...I think I still might want to get 5 angelfish after all instead of ditching the idea entirely, to be honest. I might just go with 5 angelfish, 5 cories, 5 live plants, 5 snails and however many bristlenoses I can keep safely. It's not ideal, but at least I'll have angelfish. I have also seen Buenos aires tetra live with angelfish just fine...not as ideal either but may consider including them in my setup as well.

1. You need more cories, by which I mean that having the space for them you need to increase the shoal so they will be better off. Five may be minimum in a tank where more would be asking for trouble, but the cories will without question be "better" with more in the group.

2. Please do not combine Buenos Aires Tetras with angelfish. I tried to explain why these things matter to fish, and this is another example. Risking the fish just to prove something may work is not the way to go. Think of the fish, and provide what they "expect." They will bee healthier and you will have fewer problems. If it is not "ideal," it will inevitably make the fish's life more difficult. And that is just not fair to the fish.

3. Essjay is correct, gourami and cichlids do not mix One or the other, but not both.

 

[Crusader13]

One more thing. You said that there are some fish that would generally be okay with angelfish. Which fish were you referring to, besides cories and plecos? I'm sorry if I'm making anyone repeat themselves. It's just a lot of info to take in I at least understand the significance of keeping fish in appropriate water parameters and not trying to change that. From the beginning it was never my intention to try and keep fish in inappropriate conditions, which is why i posted this topic to begin with because i wasn't sure i was getting good information, and i didnt want to be responsible for killing fish over shady info or people just trying to get me to buy their fish.