What Is Flaming?

[Dieses Madchen]

I think breeding platys x swordtails is fine. As there are no obvious signs of discomfort to the offspring. They will live a good life.
Whereas with the blood parrot- they can swim properly, they cant eat properly. These live a poor life.

+1

I think hybrid fish are some true beauties, but I feel for the ones that have issues and cannot truely thrive.

I think blood parrots are gorgeous, but i wont buy any, and boycott the breeders.

I do not know much about Blood Parrots. Are they hybrids/crossbreeds? Or are they genetically manipulated

 

[FishFreak95]

I think breeding platys x swordtails is fine. As there are no obvious signs of discomfort to the offspring. They will live a good life.
Whereas with the blood parrot- they can swim properly, they cant eat properly. These live a poor life.

+1

I think hybrid fish are some true beauties, but I feel for the ones that have issues and cannot truely thrive.

I think blood parrots are gorgeous, but i wont buy any, and boycott the breeders.

I do not know much about Blood Parrots. Are they hybrids/crossbreeds? Or are they genetically manipulated

They are hybrids of Midas and Synspilum. My old BPs swam fine but were a little slow and they just needed to be fed a smaller pellet than my other fish. They are prone to Swim bladder issues though. King Kong Parrots and all the other breeds of parrot generally are better swimmers and eaters. Many Parrots have fully closed mouthes and live like real cichlids. I want to get a female BP for a hybrid project in the future actually. Boycott something serious like fish with there tails cut off or dyed fish. IMO for any fish, pure, hybrid, or GM, if it lives without suffering and can live happy lives there is no problem with them.

 

[holidayinn]

Got no issue with people keeping hybrids, but do have an issue with hybrid fry being passed around as a ‘true’ species

 

[Seed_Lord]

Same thing goes for all fish then? lol, not every fish especially in the fish trade will be healthy cos of inbreeding etc, but i bet you've brought heavily inbred fish before like fancy guppies, same as with pedigre dogs, makes them weaker. If fish are that closely related that they can breed naturally theres no reason why there should be a problem with the outcome. I've caught roach/bream hybrids before so yeh lol. IMO if the fish is bright and eating with no other signs of stress of discomfort then its healthy, without asking the fish how hes feeling or dissecting it to find out if its been in comfort or not.

Inbreeding is not the same thing as cross breeding. My juveniles are cross bred. They are platy/swordtail hybrids. Mating a purebred dog with its sister to maintain genetic integrity is inbreeding. Basically, what has happened in my community, is the same thing as breeding a beagle with a cocker spaniel. There is no harm in this as the animals are relatively the same size, but it produces a modified species of animal. Now if I were to let my juveniles mate with their mother, then I would have a problem.

You've lost my point completely lol, im saying 'cross breeding' aka hybrids are no worse than inbreeding, if not better lol, unless the fish is in obvious discomfort.

 

[FishFreak95]

Same thing goes for all fish then? lol, not every fish especially in the fish trade will be healthy cos of inbreeding etc, but i bet you've brought heavily inbred fish before like fancy guppies, same as with pedigre dogs, makes them weaker. If fish are that closely related that they can breed naturally theres no reason why there should be a problem with the outcome. I've caught roach/bream hybrids before so yeh lol. IMO if the fish is bright and eating with no other signs of stress of discomfort then its healthy, without asking the fish how hes feeling or dissecting it to find out if its been in comfort or not.

Inbreeding is not the same thing as cross breeding. My juveniles are cross bred. They are platy/swordtail hybrids. Mating a purebred dog with its sister to maintain genetic integrity is inbreeding. Basically, what has happened in my community, is the same thing as breeding a beagle with a cocker spaniel. There is no harm in this as the animals are relatively the same size, but it produces a modified species of animal. Now if I were to let my juveniles mate with their mother, then I would have a problem.

You've lost my point completely lol, im saying 'cross breeding' aka hybrids are no worse than inbreeding, if not better lol, unless the fish is in obvious discomfort.

Your right. Inbreeding is a lot more likely to cause deformities than hybridization.

 

[raptorrex]

Inbreeding is a lot more likely to cause deformities than hybridization.

not in the least.
they are both equally as bad.
try asking any biologist!

 

[FishFreak95]

Inbreeding is a lot more likely to cause deformities than hybridization.

not in the least.
they are both equally as bad.
try asking any biologist!

You try asking a biologist. Have you ever heard of hybrid vigor? They teach it in high school.
IMO its not really bad if you cull out the bad, deformed ones. If it wasn't for inbreeding we wouldn't have the dogs we have today. If it wasn't for hybridization we wouldn't be producing nearly as much food as we have today. I'm not saying hybridization doesn't have the occasional deformity, I am just saying inbreeding is more likely to result in deformities. The 'a lot' wasn't really necessary though.

 

[Seed_Lord]

Also deformities can happen without inbreeding or hybridization Those two possibly just increase the risk, more so with inbreeding.

 

[fish48]

Inbreeding can cause deformities it is not common, it rareey happens

 

[raptorrex]

Inbreeding is a lot more likely to cause deformities than hybridization.

not in the least.
they are both equally as bad.
try asking any biologist!

You try asking a biologist. Have you ever heard of hybrid vigor? They teach it in high school.
IMO its not really bad if you cull out the bad, deformed ones. If it wasn't for inbreeding we wouldn't have the dogs we have today. If it wasn't for hybridization we wouldn't be producing nearly as much food as we have today. I'm not saying hybridization doesn't have the occasional deformity, I am just saying inbreeding is more likely to result in deformities. The 'a lot' wasn't really necessary though.

yes my young friend. i do know about hetrosis. but, unlike you, i understand its a bad thing.
animals grow uncontrollably, they ofetn grow to the point where their bones cannot take the weight. they also come with a host of other problem. that all need medical treatment..

so you grow a hybrid giant, which is ill all the time, and cant breed. (or they can breed but the offspring are more like the original grandparents) so even nature takes the cats back to, something, more like where they started.
all you have is a fish to serve your ego.
why?
because the only reason life exists, is to propagate the species.but as these animals don't (see above)
fortunately, it only happens in certain circumstances.

the only people who peddle hetrosis as good, are pedigree dog/cat and agricultural breeders.
and only then as a solution to their centuries of inbreeding. to try and salvage something from the mess they caused.
check the meds cabinet(building?) of your average milk farmer (the Holstein cow is one of the worst case of the problems caused by hybridization/inbreeding.) at any point upwards of 50% of his stock will be on medication just to survive.
sure we get more milk per cow. we also get more antibiotics, per milk drink, that you average GP would ever proscribe. with the associated problems of resistance that causes.

yes hetrosis can have benefits, if humans are looking to breed specific traits.
but take the Holstein. this, supposedly, WAS created by experts (sic). yet its one of the most sickly animals alive.
And you think you are qualified to experiment yourselves?

 

[FishFreak95]

To me it seems like you think Heterosis = growing larger then the parents. Heterosis can be superiority in anything, size, feeding response, strength, immunity, etc. Hybrids get sick or ill just as any pure species does. Some Hybrids such as the liger, which it seems where you are getting all of your ideas and opinions from, do have problems that can make them suffer. Are you saying Colubrid hybrids are completely fine since they are as fertile, if not more fertile than pure species, live the same or longer than the pure species, rarely have problems eating, etc?

I don't know where your getting your information. The Holstein is not a hybrid, It is inbred. The holstein has existed for a LONG time. I don't remember how long but it was over 1000 years. They didn't need meds for them then because they didn't breed the ones who weren't strong enough to survive in bad conditions(selective breeding) they were not sickly. Now they just need to breed for milk production and unfortunately that is all the breed for. An example of a hybrid with zero ill effects is the beefalo, a 5/8cow 3/8bison hybrid, gives birth to smaller offspring but grows faster than pure cattle. Its milk is more nutritious too. Many breeds of cattle, all of which required inbreeding to creates, are perfectly healthy. If the hybrid can breed why would it look like its grandmother?
Outbreeding can easliy solve the problems with inbreeding.

Yes, I am, and any one who wants to be, is qualified to "experiment". If we all had the mindset as you we would all still be in the stone ages.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

While each seems to have a good argument, one of the points that I am noticing that is not discussed is how pedigree dog/cat/fish owners that are responsible in their breeding tend to look at it. While you have some garden variety dog/cat/fish mill owners that are out to make profit on something that looks neat, most responsible breeders are looking for traits in both parents to breed for BETTERMENT. This is why we have dog/cat shows to earn titles for such pets, this way, when breeding comes, they can create a beautiful animal that has traits that make that particular animal better than its predecessors. I have known many responsible breeders (both dog, cat, and fish) that are actually very particular to how they breed and will not just breed two animals to keep a pure species, but are looking for particular traits in hopes of creating a superior animal. And I might add, that these responsible breeders are not breeding siblings, or creating strange hybrids with no quality of life.

I figure hybridization is not a bad thing nor is it a good thing. But I do think that it takes a lot of research as well as responsibility to do it right. Hybridizing for a stronger species versus hybridizing for a cooler looking animal are two different things. Inbreeding to keep purity and hybridizing to make something cute is just irresponsible.

Yes, I am, and any one who wants to be, is qualified to "experiment". If we all had the mindset as you we would all still be in the stone ages.

On this I am inclined to disagree. Nobody without proper research should be qualified to "experiment" just because you want to see what happens. Regardless of curiosity, you are still using lifeforms that have feelings and emotions. Imagine if someone wanted to experiment on your just to see what happens, and ends up leaving you deformed with no quality of life, struggling to live.

It is one thing to hybridize with proper research and a good background in genetics versus some curious hobbyist with a appetite for experimentation. If you can show me your PhD in Genetics/Research and development, I will reverse this statement and apologize.

 

[raptorrex]

To me it seems like you think Heterosis = growing larger then the parents. Heterosis can be superiority in anything, size, feeding response, strength, immunity, etc. Hybrids get sick or ill just as any pure species does. Some Hybrids such as the liger, which it seems where you are getting all of your ideas and opinions from, do have problems that can make them suffer. Are you saying Colubrid hybrids are completely fine since they are as fertile, if not more fertile than pure species, live the same or longer than the pure species, rarely have problems eating, etc?

I don't know where your getting your information. The Holstein is not a hybrid, It is inbred. The holstein has existed for a LONG time. I don't remember how long but it was over 1000 years. They didn't need meds for them then because they didn't breed the ones who weren't strong enough to survive in bad conditions(selective breeding) they were not sickly. Now they just need to breed for milk production and unfortunately that is all the breed for. An example of a hybrid with zero ill effects is the beefalo, a 5/8cow 3/8bison hybrid, gives birth to smaller offspring but grows faster than pure cattle. Its milk is more nutritious too. Many breeds of cattle, all of which required inbreeding to creates, are perfectly healthy. If the hybrid can breed why would it look like its grandmother?
Outbreeding can easliy solve the problems with inbreeding.

Yes, I am, and any one who wants to be, is qualified to "experiment". If we all had the mindset as you we would all still be in the stone ages.

Hetrosis animals do not breed. well they do, but they do not give birth to copies of themselve, they produce ofspring that are more akin to their grandparents. so two ligers do not make a new liger. so, they cant reproduce their own kind. (this is established fact)
as for your comments on Holstein cows. lol. Hetrosis was used in their recent production. but its true, its in breeding causing most of the problems.
and, despite your comments. they are some of the most sickly animals alive. so much so laws have been muted to help the problem. link
that's ignoring the massive amounts of growth hormones they are pumping into the human food chain. (mainly the USA)

none of these "modified" animals are capable of surviving in the wild. many can only breed with human help. most show significant genetic problems.
Yep, sounds like hybrid and inbred animals are fine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anyway the question was raised as to why people had a problem with hybridisation.
i outlined why.
you may disagree, for all most care.
the reason you are hidden away in your own private hole (where, generally, people are not allowed to make adverse points) is, most keepers agree with me.fortunately.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

[the reason you are hidden away in your own private hole (where, generally, people are not allowed to make adverse points) is, most keepers agree with me.fortunately.

It is not all hybrids though. Some hybridization occur in closely related species, not neccessarily through human interferance. Endler/guppies, Platys/swords, as well as numerous species of Mbunas are known to interbreed. And these hybrids are living quality of life that is good. One of my platy/sword hybrids, that I have raised since it was born, just had her first batch of babies. So, she swims fine, eats fine, and can produce young.

So it is not all hybridizations that are a big problem. I agree with hybridization amongst closely related species, but only if you are keeping them. As someone said, people selling hybrids as pure species is just wrong. I would not attempt to force something on a species that is not known to already occurr. I give my babies away for free as they are not pure species of platys or swordtails, and anyone who takes my babies know that they are getting hybrids.

 

[FishFreak95]

[the reason you are hidden away in your own private hole (where, generally, people are not allowed to make adverse points) is, most keepers agree with me.fortunately.

It is not all hybrids though. Some hybridization occur in closely related species, not neccessarily through human interferance. Endler/guppies, Platys/swords, as well as numerous species of Mbunas are known to interbreed. And these hybrids are living quality of life that is good. One of my platy/sword hybrids, that I have raised since it was born, just had her first batch of babies. So, she swims fine, eats fine, and can produce young.

So it is not all hybridizations that are a big problem. I agree with hybridization amongst closely related species, but only if you are keeping them. As someone said, people selling hybrids as pure species is just wrong. I would not attempt to force something on a species that is not known to already occurr. I give my babies away for free as they are not pure species of platys or swordtails, and anyone who takes my babies know that they are getting hybrids.

What is closey related? What you believe is closely related could be very distantly related to another. I have hybrid snakes. It is an intrageneric hybrid, meaning its a hybrid across different genera. Is this closely related enough for you? The hybrids are perfectly healthy and can produce fertile offspring. Heck, a 30 species cross WOULD be fertile. Raptorrex believes the next generations of hybrids will look like its grandmother. Have you seen a Red Texas? Tell me that looks like a texas or a Blood Parrot. How about a blood parrot? They don't look like a midas or a Synspilum? Yes, you will have a few that will look more like one species or another, That is where culling comes in. I plan on making a Texaguar( Texas X Jaguar). The 1st generation of males will be sterile but the 2nd and 3rd generation will be fertile. Is that OK? These hybrids are for me and and any hobbyists that might be interested. There are a lot of closeted hybrid fans. There is very likely more than you think. Many Hybrid keepers quit going on forums because butthurt purists don't stop bashing on them and don't except an opinion other than there own. Some of the things you believe are fact only apply to certain animals such as Ligers. My hobbies (cichlids and snakes) don't follow your "facts". I see these arguments all they time. I'll tell you what happens in the end. No one wins and Few if any opinions are changes.