Very High Ph

[brenjsulli]

Hi all,

New to hobby and have a few questions. 20 Gal tank that is about 6 weeks old. We probably should have waited but were worried about only have 3 danios, so we found a small locally owned store, and bought 2 snow white danios. So we have 5 danios, a platy and a mollie. They also recommend a product called stabilizer to add (though I don't know if it does anything).

The ammonia is still at .5 ppm, and still zero nitrate. I tested the pH today, and it was off the charts, so above 8.8. I than tested my tap water I realized it is at 8.0

Should I reduce or increase the water changes? What can I do about the high pH? Could the high pH be contributing to the ammonia, or vice-versa?
Do I wait until the ammonia is at zero to lower the pH? Should I add a pH down chemical to tap water before I add it to the tank? I read drift wood helps lower pH, are there any other natural ways? Thanks in advance.

Background: Recently bought a 20gal tank from a big box pet store. Did not know anything about the nitrogen cycle, and was sold a quick start formula that claimed to instantly make the tank ready for fish.

Set the tank up, added quick start solution and waited 24 hours. Brought a water sample to the store and was told it was perfect. We bought a guppy, platy and mollie. The guppy died the second day so we brought it back and got another one.

I did a couple of 10% water changes, waited 10 days, and returned to the store with another water sample, and was again told it was good. We purchased and added an albino and a panda cory. The albino died the first night and and the panda the next.

We went back to the store had our water tested, and were told "it is fine, and sometimes the fish just can't handle the stress of the trip home and being added to a new tank." So this time we replaced the cories with two guppies turned out one was actually a zebra danio)and did another 10% water change.

That night the guppy we had had for a while died, and the new guppy lost its color and the back half of its body turned white before dying the next night. We once again returned to the store with a sample and the dead fish, and were told that the ammonia level was slightly high but was okay and the tank had cycled. So we replaced the two guppies with two more Zebra Danios.

I realized that the employes probably didn't know as much as they should, so I started reading more online and purchased an API testing kit. Turns out the ammonia level was very high and about 8 ppm and there wasn't any nitrate. I immediately did a 50% water change. The next three days I changed 50% until I got the ammonia down to 1 ppm. Since then I have been doing daily water changes of 25%. but I can't get ammonia below 0.5.  Thanks

 

[orangegecko]

Have you read this yet?
 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421488-cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first/

 

[Ch4rlie]

Hi and welcome to the forum.
 
It seems you have started a fish tank without actually cycling the tank, as orangegecko's link.
 
The most likely reason your fish are dying quickly is probably down no ammonia or nitrite poisoning, which is ironically basically their own waste by products.
 
In order to make the water safe for fish, you need to start a colony of bacteria that will process ammonia, then bacteria to process nitrite then that becomes nitrate in which  we do weekly water changes to control nitrate. 
 
Probably a lot to take on but thats the very basics.
 
Now, i'd actually recommend you take these fish back to the LFS (Local Fish Store) and start doing a Fishless Cycle as per that link.
 
One other thing that may also be causing a problem is your tap water high pH, generally speaking its not so much a problem but you'll need to find suitable stocking that suits this pH rather than join through process of lowering the pH which, in fact, is quite difficult to sustain over a period of time.
 
I would not add any stabiliser or pH altering products or anything the LFS offers to sell you, IMO these do very little.
 
A couple of questions :
 
Can I ask what type of test kit are you using?
A liquid or powder based test kit or a paper strip dip kit?
 
Are you using any tap safe or dechlorinator added to tap water before adding to the tank when you do water changes?
 
What kind of symptoms do the fish show before they pass away? 
Gasping at surface, red gills, swimming erratically, lethargy etc
 
The more information you can give, the better.

 

[brenjsulli]

Yes I read the article, and many more like it.  When I first purchased fish I was under the assumption that the SafeStart Aquarium Cycling Water Conditioner would do as it claimed and "accelerates the establishment of the bio-filter in newly set-up freshwater aquariums. The live bacteria start working immediately to provide a safe and healthy environment for your fish without the long wait."  I brought water samples to the store and was told it was fine and okay for fish.  I know understand that I should have done a fishless cycle and will next time, but it is a bit late for that.  The tank has been set up for over six weeks and is undergoing a fish-in cycle with hardy fish.
 
I am using an API Freshwater Master Kit, which is liquid.  Of course I am adding a dechlorinator to the tap water and making sure it is at the right temperature.  The more I have read about pH altering product, the less I like.  From what I gather they tend to cause pH to roller-coaster up and down which is terrible for the fish.  I was really trying to find out if the high pH could be from the 0.5 ppm of ammonia, or if the ammonia could be raising the pH. 
 
To lower the pH from the 8.0 from the tap, I am going to let the water I plan on using for changes sit for 24 hours.   I am also going to add some driftwood to the tank, and am considering peat moss or almond leaves.  I have also read several articles stating that fish acclimate to high or low pH levels well, and unstable and fluctuating pH levels are the real danger.

 

[fluttermoth]

All your fish are fine with a high pH; it's only if you want to keep other things, like some tetras or dwarf cichlids for instance, that you might have issues.
 
Your main problem is that ammonia is more toxic at a higher pH, so you will need to keep up your water changes to keep it as low as possible. If changes of 25% aren't bring it down, do larger ones.
 
Have you tested the tap water after you've let it stand for 24 hours? Many water companies add things (usually CO2) that temporarily alter pH, so you need to let it stand to get a true reading.

 

[brenjsulli]

I
 

All your fish are fine with a high pH; it's only if you want to keep other things, like some tetras or dwarf cichlids for instance, that you might have issues.
 
Your main problem is that ammonia is more toxic at a higher pH, so you will need to keep up your water changes to keep it as low as possible. If changes of 25% aren't bring it down, do larger ones.
 
Have you tested the tap water after you've let it stand for 24 hours? Many water companies add things (usually CO2) that temporarily alter pH, so you need to let it stand to get a true reading.

I have some tap water sitting right now to test.  I do want to lower the pH to 7.0 because I was hoping to add cardinal tetras and a dwarf gourami.  I read somewhere that doing daily water changes may actually slow down the establishment of the biological filter.  Is that true?  Should I only be doing a water change every other day?

 

[fluttermoth]

It is true that daily water changes will make your cycle slower, but not to do them risks long term health issues, or even death, for your fish, so you have to carry to doing them.

What you have to remember about pH is that it's normally caused by having hard water, with a lot of dissolved minerals in it. Using things, like pH Down, will temporarily reduce the pH but because you're not removing hardness, those dissolved minerals will push the pH back up again, pretty quickly.

For most fish, it's hardness that's more important than pH anyway, so you'll have to look at ways of reducing hardness. RO is normally the way to go, although if you live in a very rural area, you might be able to use rainwater.

 

[b3cca]

If as you say the ammonia was over 8 ppm for a while then that could have well have stalled the cycle and killed off/overwhelmed any nitrifying bacs you had in there which I think was your main problem
I'm certainly no expert and may be corrected by somebody wiser, but I can't imagine the bacs you need can live/survive long at 8 ppm ammonia at 8 PH, they certainly wouldn't thrive anyways.
 
I realise that every cycle is different but I did daily and some times 2/3 times daily large PWC during my fish in cycle and it was fully cycled in just over 3 weeks so don't be afraid to do as many large PWC as it needs. Very High ammonia will hinder your cycle far more than any ammount of water changes will.
 
Wouldn't worry about PH until you get your cycle on track and started and you say it is a local supplier so they at the fish store could well have the same similar alkaline parameters as you do at your home.