Various Questions And Progress (Hopefully) For My First Tank

[kaivalagi]

A nice schooling midwater fish is the rummy nose. They are reputed to school tighter than any other fish and do indeed swim in midwater. My LFS uses a large group of about 20 of them in a large display tank and those fish tend to swim just above the plants in their tank,. They also have lots of cories foraging in the plants at the bottom and other fish that tend to swim mostly near the surface. Overall, it is a very attractive display, and I am certain it helps them sell lots of fish.

Nice fish, sort of like a torpedo too I've have to keep an eye out for those

Have to wait for now though I'm on daily water changes and a very limited feeding routine right now as I think the 3 otos and 3 corys added recently tipped the balance of the tanks bio-chemistry and I tested +ve for Ammonia at 3 mg/l. Although the new fish were added to a tank that has been through the cycle fine, in hind sight I think I should of added fish in smaller amounts and waited a while longer after the filter switch I did approx one week ago (old medium in the new filter but new filter is 12L in size).

So that's another lesson learnt - never add too many fish at once into a tank when recently cycled or upgraded, there may not be enough bacteria colonised in the filter medium to cope with the extra waste...

If I carry on with the daily water changes (currently ~25%) how long do you think it will take for things to get back to normal? I guess I'll carry on testing Ammonium and Nitrate/Nitrite levels every few days, when ammonium is gone and Nitrate are gone, do one last water change then back to weekly water change cycle?


All the fish look just fine for now, keeping a close watch on them...I know my mistake now for all the good it does me...

This is the first time I have had anything major to worry about with the tank, should I be majorly concerned for my fish? Have any others faced this type of problem before?

 

[OldMan47]

Welcome to the forum Kaivalaqi.
All that I can suggest is that you turn the spray bar so that the holes point toward the back wall of the tank and throttle the flow if you can on the return hose. I see you are following the extreme flow regime advocated by the planted tank specialists. Perhaps those same people can tell you how they control the flows once they set up a high flow system. A post in the planted section might get you more help.

 

[waterdrop]

Hi kaivalagi and welcome to TFF,

You're correct, there is not much information about current preference on a species by species basis. At some point, species specific information can start to get overwhelming if you attempt to discuss it from a community tank standpoint. This is what the species-specific forums are for and even within them, water movement topics are probably not hot on the list. Still, it can be an important topic and you may just have to build up some personal experience.

If you really did want to persue it from the standpoint of gathering published information, a starting point might be to look for species writeups that include references to the natural home of the species. River/stream sourced fish will be more used to current, at least on a seasonal basis. Lake sourced fish may be used to very still water. Of course, within both there will be exceptions. Also keep in mind that places like the amazon basin have enormous seasonal differences.

Another tidbit of baseline info is that a simple guideline is to ask whether you're able to provide some areas of calm so that your fish can "escape" the stronger currents if they choose to. If that's the case then strong currents can be a good way for fish to get exercise and stay healthy, while having respite when they need it. I suppose in the ideal world one would have a huge tank that included definite areas of both.

My current opinion (lol) is that current is, for a beginner anyway, one of the things that sits a bit in the middle between the side of easy fishkeeping on the one hand and the side of the beautiful algae-free planted tank on the other. It does seem somewhat difficult at times to work out the tricks of getting the current to be best for both.

Having lots of turnover and good circulation is a significant tool in the planted tank, whereas too much flow rate all about the tank can indeed stress out fish if they have no where to escape. So it does come down to some common sense and trial and error. One small observation I've made in my own case when I took measures to increase circulation was that my fish did seem to need some time to get used to it. I observed that relatively early on they seemed to enjoy swimming into the high current of a new powerhead I introduced, to be shot across the tank. It took them a bit longer to work out where the best "still spots" were.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[kaivalagi]

Welcome to the forum Kaivalaqi.

Hi kaivalagi and welcome to TFF,

Thanks for the welcome and all of your opinions guys, much appreciated

All that I can suggest is that you turn the spray bar so that the holes point toward the back wall of the tank and throttle the flow if you can on the return hose.

For now I have throttled the flow to about 1/3 and have the spray bar facing the back of the tank, which suits me getting the filter matured. Might be worth me slowly ramping the rate up over some time? Longer term I really do want to ramp it up a bit to give all the fish a bit of exercise and an environment which is more natural (as long as I can find out what is natural!). From what little I have read new world cichlids like medium to fast flow, is this right? In their natural habitat I assume the flow rates peak and trough, with the seasonal rain fall as waterdrop has mentioned

I see you are following the extreme flow regime advocated by the planted tank specialists. Perhaps those same people can tell you how they control the flows once they set up a high flow system. A post in the planted section might get you more help.

I'll do some reading in the thread and elsewhere and post a little later on once I have a better understanding, thanks for the tip

You're correct, there is not much information about current preference on a species by species basis. At some point, species specific information can start to get overwhelming if you attempt to discuss it from a community tank standpoint. This is what the species-specific forums are for and even within them, water movement topics are probably not hot on the list. Still, it can be an important topic and you may just have to build up some personal experience.

If you really did want to persue it from the standpoint of gathering published information, a starting point might be to look for species writeups that include references to the natural home of the species. River/stream sourced fish will be more used to current, at least on a seasonal basis. Lake sourced fish may be used to very still water. Of course, within both there will be exceptions. Also keep in mind that places like the amazon basin have enormous seasonal differences.

I've got some serious reading to do then, I'll get started and see if it's worth pursuing in great depth or not. I'll read through posts on the species specific threads to try and find out more. Sometimes it feels like I need to do a biology degree for all this...maybe I should start a part-time open university degree on the topic and get something for all the effort

Another tidbit of baseline info is that a simple guideline is to ask whether you're able to provide some areas of calm so that your fish can "escape" the stronger currents if they choose to. If that's the case then strong currents can be a good way for fish to get exercise and stay healthy, while having respite when they need it. I suppose in the ideal world one would have a huge tank that included definite areas of both.

My current opinion (lol) is that current is, for a beginner anyway, one of the things that sits a bit in the middle between the side of easy fishkeeping on the one hand and the side of the beautiful algae-free planted tank on the other. It does seem somewhat difficult at times to work out the tricks of getting the current to be best for both.

Having lots of turnover and good circulation is a significant tool in the planted tank, whereas too much flow rate all about the tank can indeed stress out fish if they have no where to escape. So it does come down to some common sense and trial and error. One small observation I've made in my own case when I took measures to increase circulation was that my fish did seem to need some time to get used to it. I observed that relatively early on they seemed to enjoy swimming into the high current of a new powerhead I introduced, to be shot across the tank. It took them a bit longer to work out where the best "still spots" were.

I do plan on upgrading lighting and introducing a little CO2 longer term, to support more plants. For now maybe I should source some low light plants and place them around the tank to provide more cover. Maybe a floating plant for the Danios?

I think the bottom feeders and cichlids have identified good shelter already, the Danios have more of a problem with this though, I think they are sticking to the top of the tank which restricts their options. Again, I suspect some more planting and rocks with cover high up in the tank could help, would you agree?

 

[Croftuz]

Just on a side note, i have also recently upgraded to an external (Eheim 2028) and have a similar size tank to yourself.

Overkill, yes but definitely worth it. After much playing around with flow settings and spray bar direction etc i got to a point where i had to restrict the flow. I really hated doing this because it was just holding back the natural operating speed of the impeller. The motor still spins at the same speed regardless of the water flow and i didn't want to shorten the life of the unit or instigate leaks.

So i decided to place the spray bar at one end of the tank, i shortened it slightly and aimed the holes to the glass on the side slightly aimed down. Realising this killed the flow, and possible oxygenating movement of the top layer of the tank i added 3 holes to the bar with a drill, aiming into the surface of the tank.

With spare spray bars relatively cheap to replace i figured this experiment couldn't hurt, and its great!
I have maximum water filter turnover and an area down the length of the tank with good flow for current loving fish. My species have separated to their most preferred area.

Sorry to ramble, but i did this on Thursday, and i'm still really happy that it worked well!

~Paul

 

[kaivalagi]

@Croftuz

I am amazed on how much clearer my tank has become because of the large amount of media in the filter, even if I restrict the rate of flow and possibly the lifetime of the impeller I will be happy with the outcome. No regrets at all

I have to admit that I too tried (very briefly) using just one piece of the 3 pieces that make up my spray bar (about 10cm in length) on the short side of the tank directed length ways, thinking this was like a river channel, but went back to conventional means and a lower rate as my internal filter was in the way. Now you've just given me the excuse to try it again properly from one end of my tank once I get rid of or move my old internal filter. And the idea of drilling some more holes to get oxygenation sounds great too! Just need to find out the cost of a spray bar replacement first!!

I'll give all this a whirl after the internal filter has done it's job I think (or loose patience and move it to somewhere else in the tank). Any ideas on how long a new filter takes to build up the necessary bacteria?

Also, what fish do you currently have in your tank? And what behaviour do they exhibit? Could you post a photo of your setup?

Thanks in advance, oh and rambling has worked for me so far

 

[Croftuz]

The experimentation is the fun part! Having a settled tank is fantastic as it proves all the learning, reading observing etc i've done since starting the hobby 9 months ago was worth it, but speak to any fish keeper on these forums and they'll all say the same. The day i stop changing my tank around, scaping, planting or stocking is the day i buy a new tank, and another and another lol.

I have 6 Neon Rainbowfish who love the current, 6 Cherry Barbs who shoal at the right side amongst Java Fern at the back of the current picking off food etc, 4 Platy's who range all over but, being lazy generally roam my bogwood (unless its feeding time, they are also greedy). My Danio's like yours generally cover the whole top layer of the tank, as in the wild i see these fish picking flies etc on the surface.

For the bottom 3 Peppered Cory's (increasing the shoal size gradually). They love to sit beneath the spray bar catching the current that runs down the side of the tank from the rear-facing holes. I have a mix of sand and gravel in my tank, gravel for planting and around features. With the 'river' effect, gravel bars work well.

All my fish appreciate the flow, regardless of their species ancestors origins (river, lake etc), it brings food and oxygenated water. In a completely fabricated habitat whats more important is your filtration and water quality.

The problem you may face is that your old filter houses your colony of bacteria, and depending on the amount of Waste your fish/food produces you may not grow anymore bacteria in your new filter. If the bioload is sufficient now, then there isn't any extra 'food' for the bacteria to thrive on. The colony will grow to the size of availible rescources.

Its because of this i decided to pack all of my old media into my new filter, even if it meant removing new material to get it all in. Over time you can remove the old media and replace it gradually.

hope that all made sense!

~Paul

 

[kaivalagi]

Makes total sense Croftuz, thanks for the detailed description of your inhabitants, very helpful.

I might well move my media to my new filter, rather that than risk going through a full cycle and upsetting my fish! I could do with the spare media anyway...I need to add more fish yet too as I am under capacity and have all that bio-filtration available...some otos and red tailed shark I think, that's if my firemouths will allow it.

I need to think it through some more...a couple more weeks before any stocking change...

Thanks again

 

[waterdrop]

kaiv wrote: "I do plan on upgrading lighting and introducing a little CO2 longer term"

I found in my reading here that CO2 is a ideally more of an all or nothing thing. The DIY (yeast etc.) methods are tedious and tiring to maintain and these methods, like the liquid carbon method, are not really as good in the long run as pressurized CO2. (I currently use the liquid carbon (Excel or EasyCarbo) method with low-light approach.) Anyway, in the end you don't run "a little CO2," you have to just have the proper checks and run it in a standard way.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[kaivalagi]

kaiv wrote: "I do plan on upgrading lighting and introducing a little CO2 longer term"

I found in my reading here that CO2 is a ideally more of an all or nothing thing. The DIY (yeast etc.) methods are tedious and tiring to maintain and these methods, like the liquid carbon method, are not really as good in the long run as pressurized CO2. (I currently use the liquid carbon (Excel or EasyCarbo) method with low-light approach.) Anyway, in the end you don't run "a little CO2," you have to just have the proper checks and run it in a standard way.

~~waterdrop~~

So I wouldn't want ot introduce pressurised CO2 with no lighting upgrade for example? I already have a Hydor CO2 kit with diffuser which is an upcoming xmas present I shouldn't know about I would have chosen something more cost effective such as refillable canisters and a decent regulator/solenoid setup but beggars can't be choosers
Sounds like a lot more reading in the planted aquarium section is required before I hook it up

I have this fishkeeping bug really bad, I am at work at the mo

 

[waterdrop]

If you already have a fermentation kit you should go ahead and give that a go. Like so many other things in this hobby, if you have the extreme patience it takes to just be very regular and thorough about it, there's no reason it can't work for you within its limitations. Another of the reasons for the more expensive pressurized equipment is that normally that's the minimum it takes to maintain a steady pattern of correct CO2 levels.

You are correct about light. Light is the driving force of all the planted processes in that it sets the "rate" at which everything is happening. Once you push your rate up into the "high-tech" region (up above 2 watts/gallon with traditional fluorescent lighting generally) you may find that significant resources and techniques will need to be going in to keep things working right.

My favorite thought provoker for that side of the hobby: light is a skill set, CO2 is a skill set, nutrient dosing is a skill set and finally, algae control is a skill set that requires some passing grades in the three previous skill sets.

My personal feeling is that a good route for beginners is to accept that a year or two of good beginner freshwater fishkeeping focusing on learning the water/fish side and using low-light plant techniques to begin to learn some plant topics is better than getting in over your head. That time will go by much more rapidly than you think and you will look back amazed at all the things there were to learn.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[kaivalagi]

If you already have a fermentation kit you should go ahead and give that a go. Like so many other things in this hobby, if you have the extreme patience it takes to just be very regular and thorough about it, there's no reason it can't work for you within its limitations. Another of the reasons for the more expensive pressurized equipment is that normally that's the minimum it takes to maintain a steady pattern of correct CO2 levels.

You are correct about light. Light is the driving force of all the planted processes in that it sets the "rate" at which everything is happening. Once you push your rate up into the "high-tech" region (up above 2 watts/gallon with traditional fluorescent lighting generally) you may find that significant resources and techniques will need to be going in to keep things working right.

My favorite thought provoker for that side of the hobby: light is a skill set, CO2 is a skill set, nutrient dosing is a skill set and finally, algae control is a skill set that requires some passing grades in the three previous skill sets.

My personal feeling is that a good route for beginners is to accept that a year or two of good beginner freshwater fishkeeping focusing on learning the water/fish side and using low-light plant techniques to begin to learn some plant topics is better than getting in over your head. That time will go by much more rapidly than you think and you will look back amazed at all the things there were to learn.

~~waterdrop~~

Thanks for bringing things into perspective for me, I can get a bit overly eager at times

My current thinking is this.....As I have a CO2 kit (disposable pressurised variety) I might as well, in a month or two, start introducing as an absolute max 1 bubble per second with a few more low light plants in there, just to see whether it have any positive effect with growth. It must be of some benefit to the plants regardless of the amount of light. I have a test kit I can monitor CO2 with so I can figure out whether it is all being absorbed by the plants or not and alter the rate accordingly. If I find that nothing is absorbed (which I doubt) I'll just stop introducing any CO2.

I think this way I get an appreciation, 1st hand, of CO2 and planted aquariums without going all out

Much much further down the line when I may get involved in 2+ watts/gallon lighting and more difficult plants I can get full on with it - by then I might well want a bigger tank (I should start saving for a Trigon 350 now!) or feel like a move towards marine anyway.

I am going to have to change the title of this topic to something more appropriate, I have strayed away from just "Water Currents and suitable fish"[font="arial][color="#000000"]...thanks for entertaining my overly eager mind! Your feedback is very much appreciated!![/font][/color]

 

[kaivalagi]

So i decided to place the spray bar at one end of the tank, i shortened it slightly and aimed the holes to the glass on the side slightly aimed down. Realising this killed the flow, and possible oxygenating movement of the top layer of the tank i added 3 holes to the bar with a drill, aiming into the surface of the tank.

I've done the same, it seems only natural for the tank to me. I enlarged the existing spray bay holes with the "hot" sharp end of a metal skewer. There is only one section of the bar used and it is directed up and at the glass adding good aeration for free

The problem you may face is that your old filter houses your colony of bacteria, and depending on the amount of Waste your fish/food produces you may not grow anymore bacteria in your new filter. If the bioload is sufficient now, then there isn't any extra 'food' for the bacteria to thrive on. The colony will grow to the size of availible rescources.

Its because of this i decided to pack all of my old media into my new filter, even if it meant removing new material to get it all in. Over time you can remove the old media and replace it gradually

hope that all made sense!

~Paul

I have removed my old internal filter and placed it's media (sponges and ceramic bits) in the external filter now, I also added some more carbon media, the canister has plenty of room. All this was done when during my weekly 20% water change...

It is so nice to have all the tank available, with only in/out pipes in there.

I have added some more fish recently too, the full complement of fish is now:

2 x Firemouth Cichlid (1 Male @7cm, 1 Female @6cm)
5 x Peppered Cory (1 Female @6cm, 1 Mail @5cm, 3 small new additions sex unknown @3cm)
3 x Oto (@2.5cm)
5 x Zebra Danio (@4cm - rehoming soon with some of my media to a friends new tank)
3 x Amano shrimp (@2-3cm somewhere shedding away...)


I also added some sumatra driftwood, a few granite type rocks, 4 sprigs of a hardy grass type plant, and one fern. Lost the ornament log...

@All
Any suggestions of what to replace my 5 Danios with when they're rehomed? I want a schooling fish preferably, in top to mid water that will cause minimum fuss when introduced and be a little more distinct and colourful than the Danios...bear in mine the 2 Firemouths, the male can be a git sometimes so some agility would be a good quality to have!

I like the look of torpedo barb for example, but they just get too big...window shopping, jury still out

current tank pic (I need to clean the glass and add a background):

 

[OldMan47]

A nice schooling midwater fish is the rummy nose. They are reputed to school tighter than any other fish and do indeed swim in midwater. My LFS uses a large group of about 20 of them in a large display tank and those fish tend to swim just above the plants in their tank,. They also have lots of cories foraging in the plants at the bottom and other fish that tend to swim mostly near the surface. Overall, it is a very attractive display, and I am certain it helps them sell lots of fish.

 

[kaivalagi]

A nice schooling midwater fish is the rummy nose. They are reputed to school tighter than any other fish and do indeed swim in midwater. My LFS uses a large group of about 20 of them in a large display tank and those fish tend to swim just above the plants in their tank,. They also have lots of cories foraging in the plants at the bottom and other fish that tend to swim mostly near the surface. Overall, it is a very attractive display, and I am certain it helps them sell lots of fish.

Nice fish, sort of like a torpedo too I've have to keep an eye out for those

Have to wait for now though I'm on daily water changes and a very limited feeding routine right now as I think the 3 otos and 3 corys added recently tipped the balance of the tanks bio-chemistry and I tested +ve in 2 tests for Ammonia at 3 mg/l. Although the new fish were added to a tank that has been through the cycle fine, in hind sight I think I should of added fish in smaller amounts and waited a while longer after the filter switch I did approx one week ago (old medium in the new filter but new filter is 12L in size).

So that's another lesson learnt - never add too many fish at once into a tank when recently cycled or upgraded, there may not be enough bacteria colonised in the filter medium to cope with the extra waste...

If I carry on with the daily water changes (currently ~25%) how long do you think it will take for things to get back to normal? I guess I'll carry on testing Ammonium and Nitrate/Nitrite levels every few days, when ammonium is gone and Nitrate are gone, do one last water change then back to weekly water change cycle? Should I remove the carbon filters from my external filter for now too?


All the fish look just fine for now, keeping a close watch on them...I think I know my mistake now for all the good it does me...*kicking myself icon here*

This is the first time I have had anything major to worry about with the tank, should I be majorly concerned for my fish? Have any others faced this type of problem before? Any recommendations?