Tips On The Use Of Soil For Non Co2, Co2 And Excel Based Dosing, It&#3

[plantbrain]

I set up a number of soil based tanks for some folks, as well as myself for a number of years.
I use sediments(soils) at my lab for aquatic weeds, no commercial stuff there. I have hundred's of pots and tubs for grow out and herbicide testing.

The "new idea", is actually old and I never bothered to mention it as I figured it was something folks did anyway. Instead of making a solid pure soil layer 2 - 3cm deep on the very bottom, you mix the 2-3 cm layer with 4-6 cm worth and 2-3 mm sand so you have a 6-8 cm deep layer of soil sand mix.

This makes far less mess, easier to keep things clean when uprooting and still provides the same volume of nutrients.

I've suggested things such as a good soak 2-3 weeks prior to use to leach out the NH4. Or alternatively, boiling for 10 minutes or so.

One thing that came up was something I've not seen others mention and many had been using the straight 100% soil on the bottom layer, generally about 1" deep. This works also.

But I never really liked that. My uncle owns a Green house in GA and suggested when I was kid to mix the soil with sand at 50-75% sand for each part soil to reduce the richness and when you uproot, it makes far less mess.

So I've pretty much stuck with it since.

The method is simple and gets around many of the issues that folks have with soil.

1.Soil is well, dirt cheap.
2. Rich in all the nutrient goodies
3. Available everywhere
4. Sand is cheap as a sediment gets as well, but lacks the nutrients

Mixing these two works very well.

So, I simply mix 1 part soil to 2-3 parts sand=> wet> then mix good.
You want nice dark sand, not "mud".
Then you add about 2-3" of this and maybe a cap of 1" plain sand.

You can add 3-4 parts sand and use it without any cap actually and then lightly vacuum the top to remove any leftover soil.

While this is not as rich as the pure soil, it also does not reduce the sediment nearly as much, and it's still a lot of soil, just spread out a lot more in 2-3" vs 1".

You can add the "mud cubes" later as the plants get growing well and remove most of the nutrients. Siol + water = mud. Add mud to ice cube trays: freeze. add mud cubes to the plant roots.

You may add anything you want to the soil also, root hormones, KNO3, CaCO3 ,more peat etc.

The results and usefulness are when you replant and the sediment does not get nearly as stinky and reduced, the sand provides better flow and less mess, better able to hold the plant roots down etc.

As far as having less nutrients than a pure soil layer, well think about it.........
the total amount is still relatively the same, but instead of a muddy mess, you have it spread interspersed with the sand.

Also, but the time it does run out of fertilizer, the tank's cycling is producing it's own waste to supply the roots/leaves etc.

You can then use the mud cubes etc, or switch KNO3/KH2PO4/Traces at small dosings to accommodate sustained growth.

I think it's pretty easy and folks should try this cheap method out.
It's been around a long long time and works well. Do many water changes for the first 2-4 weeks of a set up if you use CO2 or Excel.

I think this routine will resolve most if not all the issues some folks have with soil.

Regards,
Tom Barr
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[fishbone]

Thank you for that. I've been reading up on soil based tanks and want to give it a go, I did wonder wether or not you could mix the soil rather than layering it. You have answered my questions without me having to even ask them.
I love the idea of the mud cubes, would you pre-mix them with sand before freezing so you don't end up with 'pockets' of soil when they dissolve?
fishbone

 

[afroturf]

I'm currently in the process of setting up a 200l tank and the thought of using soil is interesting although it seems to have been around for quite a while it very rarely get talked about with all this new expensive hi tech stuff. And with the cost of my set up rising and rising using soil rather than ADA substrate I was thinking of should save me a lot of money.

The tank that I am planning will be a jungle style with approximately 50% of the base open (play sand). The planted areas will consist of lots of wood and moss with Crypts planted amongst plus a few large sword plants.

As the plants I intend to use are heavy root feeders would soil be a good option?

What soil would be best to use, soil from the garden? Clay or sandy? Standard compost or aquatic compost?

 

[Underwurlde]

^ Good question. I'd also like to know how this compares to the exisitng comercial substrate brands such as EcoComplete, Flourite, ADA Aquasoil.

I wonder if making your own root tabs by baking the 'soil / sand' mud instead of freezing is an idea... Dunno if this idea would be a 'goer' with the wife though

Andy

 

[plantbrain]

You'll note I do the high end stuff as well as the low tech.
Both have different goals and the trade offs might be worthwhile for many.

I prefer both methods personally, or pretty much all methods and then decide which is best for a specific goal I might have.

It's also very good for comparison purposes.
A few nice examples from a particular method sends folks on a rampage at times on the web..........any method can be forced and scaped and photographed well, it does not mean it's a useful method for many.

Still, a nice example goes a long way for support.
If you see many examples and folks discuss the trade offs and the ease of care, then you have better likelyhood that it's not just a forced method.

Good plain soil is fine, no compost etc or bark and larger pieces of goo in there that may float etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[MHunt]

I guess in the process of soaking the soil, you can skim off anything that floats out of the soil, but leave it long enough for anything that wants to settle to drop to the bottom. I'm just using soil straight out of the garden, it has quite a bit of dead plant matter in it, so lots of that has come up to the surface.

 

[OohFeeshy]

Are there any commercial available (ie, from garden centres) alternatives? Our soil is a bit pants- with cats and having had a rabbit, it's full of all sorts of ick. I wouldn't be comfortable using it.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Are there any commercial available (ie, from garden centres) alternatives? Our soil is a bit pants- with cats and having had a rabbit, it's full of all sorts of ick. I wouldn't be comfortable using it.

mmmm that would be my question, we've no garden so therefore no soil, i'm sure i can pick soemthing up from the garden centre but what sort would you use, plain top soil or one's with added fertilisation etc?

 

[plantbrain]

Simply good dark/black top soil ought to do well.
No added ferts etc. It's okay if they are added, but they are not needed generally.

You soak prior if so.
That leaches them out and converts the NH4 to NO3.

Then they are safe, K, PO4 and NO3 are fine for soil, it's the NH4 that's the issue.
A point lost and simply unknown by most soil based folks and supporters.

That's what happens when you do not bother to test....... you do not know and end up speculating.
Often times about the wrong things, even if it sounds right to you.

I asked a simple question sometime ago: why do folks have troubles with soil tanks in the tank up phase? I knew already is was not from the NO3, K, PO4, Fe etc.

What else was in there?

NH4..........
You test it, it's present.

You remove it via boiling and/or soaking for 3-4 weeks, and you do not have NH4 and no algae issues.

You take inorganic NH4, add it and get the same problems and algae blooms.
This suggests strongly that NH4 is the issue, not just "excess nutrients". Thus we can model our management approach to address the real players here and grow plants easier, with far more consistency, understanding and more flexibility.

You need not be a genius to figure such things out.
It is a simple test to rule things, then confirm to make sure is does cause what we think our hypothesis suggest. Done a few times, this gives you a reasonable model for the process.

This also applies to both CO2 and non CO2 methods.

BTW, most pesticides/herbicides breakdown completely rather quickly, and these either are bound to the soil and break down within about 1 maybe 2 years at longest, or end up in the ground water like Atrazine. You need high use and poor management to have issues with it.

Many break down inside 2 weeks or less.
The older pesticides are not good, but there are many newer ones that are highly effective and far less toxic.

Still, I'd suggest a nice dark black peaty top soil.
Or a somewhat pristine wetland soil during low water/fall etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr









Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[arif_93]

i dnt really get the sand mixed with soil do you need to cover the sand and soil layer with gravel

 

[nry]

Yep, sand/soil mix at the bottom, then cover with pure sand/gravel.

 

[arif_93]

will it be ok if i just use soil and then have sand/gravel layer ontop

 

[nry]

Yes, but from the article above, I think it is a good idea to have some sand mixed with the soil.

 

[BHornsey]

will it be ok if i just use soil and then have sand/gravel layer ontop

Hi,
You can do it that way, I did in my smallest tank, but when you pull any roots it pulls up a lot of mess.
Tom's idea is that by mixing the soil with sand, then perhaps capping it with sand or fine gravel, proves a lot less messy when working on the tank.

 

[plantbrain]

Yep, you got it, a lot less messy!!!
And the tank settles in faster.

When the soil gets depleted, you use the "mud cubes" to add more, or osmocoat, Jobes etc.

I am not a big fan of Jobes, the osmocoat balls are more labor to add, but they work better over time and are less prone to cause algae.

These may be added at the start up phase as well.

Regards,
Tom Barr