The Other Side Of The Spectrum

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onidrase

Let's Be Friends
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I've noticed a lot that in the hobby, LFS and petstore employees are often kicked in the teeth for the advice they give and the like. I've been working at petsmart for about 3 months now, and I have to say that usually the customers aren't exactly saints either, as most of you who have worked a dead end retail job have probably guessed.

When I first started out here, I held strong to the knowledge I gained from this website, from things like fish in and fishless cycling to really simple things like the minimum schooling sizes being six and such. Ultimately, in 98% of cases I either ended up with disappointed customers walking out of the store or people yelling at me "I DON'T CARE. GIVE IT TO ME ANYWAY." or "I'VE BEEN DOING THIS BEFORE YOU WERE BORN, DON'T TELL ME IT WON'T WORK"

Ultimately, my boss pulled me aside and told me the sad truth of retail: If they don't like what you say and you don't want to sell them it, they'll go find someone else to tell them what they want to hear who will sell it with a smile on their face. While I'm happy, ready, and willing to talk to and teach people who are willing to learn, most people just want to buy the smallest tank possible and jam pack it with as many different species as possible without the fish dying, regardless of whether or not the fish are happy.

Over the past few months, I've only had 4 people actually listen and take to heart things like fishless cycling, compatibility, the 6 fish minimum school sizes, even these really simple things. These people became regulars, only wanting to take my advice, getting my number and talking to me personally, you know. Good people. The lot of the customers, though, usually don't want to even fish for a school. Countless people only want 1 tetra or 1 barb, 1 of this, 1 of that. Because of this, I've had to dim down in most cases to "schooling fish need groups of at least 3." in which, most people don't even want to buy 3 fish. they only want 1. None the less 6 or more. And if the fish don't get sold, they just die in the aquariums at the store due to cramped conditions. They're, in most cases, better off in a small school in a slightly larger tank with less fish.

This brings me to another sad truth, most people don't do their research. They don't want to buy the same fish in groups. And fish don't have an infinite shelf life. The way I see it, they're better off in an aquarium than in a crowded store with kids banging on the tanks and giggling while the fish cower for their lives. While a school of 3 may seem blasphemous, it's something my aunt's done since she started the hobby ages ago, and most of her schoolers last several years. It's not ideal, but it works.

Here is something I've realized. People who are willing to learn for themselves and know what they're doing don't need advice from the employees anyway. Employees give out sketchy and bad information because they get typically get abused by the customers for doing otherwise. A lot of you guys on this forum are a rather rare breed, most of you are willing to learn and don't get butthurt if you don't like what you hear. Not everyone is like that. And employees, unfortunately, are not handed a radar to pick out good dedicated people from the ones who we wish didn't have a fish tank in the first place.

This doesn't necessarily mean employees are always knowledgeable, but most of us aren't idiots either. I've had more than a good share of other employees at fish stores and other large chain stores alike who know their stuff, but dim down a lot for those who don't want to hear it.

just felt like throwing this out here.
 
this actually makes a lot of sense however having the knowledge that i do when asking an employee on advice about some similar i can sort of tell when they are dimming it down or they really just dont know what theyre talking about. but i completely understand where you are coming from people just want what they want and arent willing to change their mind because somebody told them that what they want is a bad idea and probably wont work..as sad as that is for the poor fish
 
So true i wish mod edit had knowledgable employees rather than jakes selling rabbits for drug money!!!!!!!!!
 
The little petshop I can go to are the same. They'll generally tell people what they want to hear 'cause there's no point in saying anything otherwise. However, with people they know, like me, and know that we know what is right they'll talk the truth. A new member of staff tryed to talk gobpoop with me once 'cause he hadn't met me before... he soon learnt that it wasn't needed. He's actually a fairly knowledgeable Fishkeeper that knows all about cycleing etc too. But often I think he has no choice but to just talk poop 'cause no one will listen otherwise. The other staff there, however, have never heard of cycling exept for 'the boss' who was who helped me sort out some of her gravel. The others have all given me some very cofused looks over time about numerous pet-keeping practices I have. But I think the truth is probably that they aren't taught anything 'cause, well, what's the point if no-one is going to listen anyway?

There are pretty dim people out there as staff for petshops, but I know that there's also some good honest ones too. If they don't know something they'll just say so, not make up some story and hope you buy it. Or they'll tell you your doing something wrong as a pose to just letting you get on with it.

And yes, I do agree that the customers are probably worse than the staff sometimes. I've seen countless times how people just won't be told. They'll have it their way and that's that. The end. It's very sad to think that all those Animals are stuck with people who just aren't even willing to learn about them. I mean, learning is half the fun of keeping pets, isn't it? You learn something new every day. It's interesting.

I tend to let people know (if I can) that I'm not just some single-minded kinda person so we can cut the crap straite away. It tends to work for the most part and you can also tell if who your talking to is actually going to be of any help or not as well.
 
please do NOT mention other chain pet stores in this thread or it gets locked.

Ondirase has made a very good post, please don't ruin it.
 
Thanks for sharing, I enjoyed reading that :)

You're right, we all need a little perspective sometimes!
 
If its any help, named pet store does have some very good members of staff, several of them people i have worked with so its not an out and out 'the staff are bad'.

Onidrase, this is what i keep saying to people over and over and over, i've been working in the trade for 5 years and believe me, it doesnt get any easier!!

Sad truth is... customers are a/ NEVER right and b/ REALLY stupid.

To get a customer like members of this forum... i could count them on one hand of the hundreds of customers i see in a week. Few and far between and they'll be the customers that i end up chatting with for an hour or two, even if they dont buy anything (much to my boss's disgust) because for me it isnt all about the money, its about the hobby.

A lot of the time I find new customers cant stop apologising for wasting my time and all that and it doesnt matter how many times i point out that im paid to be here (kind of :rolleyes: ) but its what i enjoy.

Most days i just wonder how people can get by in their daily life if they are so stupid.

Dealing with stroppy customers... well, apparently i'm great at it if the customer has a genuine problem but not if the customer doesnt like my decision or anything like that.

I had a woman lie to me repeatedly over weeks and complaining because she had 5 goldfish in a 60L round biorb and 3 of them died... ammonia spike... we went through the treatments over and over again and a week later she was back... two more had died but her water tested perfectly so i assumed it was previous damage from the ammonia and she insisted she had changed the filter and the airstone as told and done the water change... she insisted she wanted more goldfish... i didnt have grounds to refuse the sale but i did advise her not to... in the end she left with 2 fancies...

Three days later she is back in and the two new fish have died.... i test the water, there is sky high ammonia again and im going through everything, how big a water change had she done etc... i had written it all down for her and she kept saying she had followed my instructions...

Then i made some comment like "and you definately have that grey biomedia in the biorb?" and its amazing... after all the lies she kept telling me... i got "oh im sorry dear, the biorbs in the cuboard, they are in a bowl in the kitchen! Do you think they would be better off in the biorb?" *****facepalm******

I explained to her why bowls are bad, that the build up of ammonia they were sitting in would have killed the fish and what the difference was with a biorb. I may as well have spent that hour saying "blah blah blah de blah" because she then said "well can i get 2 more fish then?" and my patience was really running out so i just said No. Not today, you need to get that biorb set up and cycle it and try and save your last goldfish first... and off she went...

Apparently she came in on a busy weekend (3 days later) and avoided me, i never saw her and my colleague sold her two fancies with no guarantee as he advised against two (with the same "i have a 60L biorb thats got one fancy and been running for years" routine) and she got me in a whole load of trouble by telling my boss that i had really upset her and made her feel like a fish murderer. Wish she had said it to my face because i honestly would have just pointed out it was the truth. Bah.

Customers are sneaky! They lie to get what they want! For the most part they are all incredibly stupid and/or ignorant and very slow on the uptake.

Its not that I hate working with customers, maybe its just where i work but honest to god i dont know how people can get up, feed themselves, actually work (though most probably dont lol) when they seem to find the most basic information so far out of their grasp!

I have all the time in the world for people who care about the fish and are enthusiastic and willing to listen. I just dont have time for people who just dont care. If the tank isnt suitable, I will tell them so. If I can get away with refusing the sale, i will do so, mostly i will try and make it seem like their idea when i advise a different routine or type of fish and if that fails, then i refuse to sell the fish. But I cant refuse fish to everyone i would like, i would lose my job, it would upset lots of customers and certainly wont be good in terms of word of mouth or repeat customers... so now if im really not happy but dont have grounds to outright refuse the sale, i will tell the customer that they are buying the fish against my advise and therefore i will be writing 'no guarantee' on their receipt and point out that if the fish die, we wont be taking any responsibility for it. Often the fact that i tell them this makes people realise that im not joking and they change their fish choices, other customers come back with their tail between their legs and buy the fish i had originally told them to get after they killed the ones they have.

Customers expct you to be happy and chirpy and ready to serve at a moments notice... no matter what I am doing. I have had people storm out because in the middle of doing a water change and draining water (takes 5 mins altogether!) they want me to stop what i am doing so they can purchase a 'bunch of weed'. No, you can wait 2 minutes for me to finish her so i dont kill all the fish, drain all our water and leave a massive trip hazard for other customers :rolleyes:

You wonder why employees sometimes dont look or act delighted to see you? Its because you are a minority and they dont expect normal human beings any more lol. Working in an aquatics shop isnt all about the customers. Only about 20% of your time is spent with customers. 80% is algae scrubbing, gravel cleaning, window wiping, death checking, feeding, hoovering the shop, facing up and rotating stock, cleaning out all the plants and so on... we generally ALWAYS have a job we are in the middle of when we are stopped to serve a customer.

Wow.. i cant even be bothered to go on any more... im sure you'll get the gist!

EDIT: Meant to say... that to have customers like i assume most of you are, polite... interested in the hobby and the welfare of the fish... enthusiastic... willing to listen to my opinion... YOU are the people that make it worth sticking in this hobby. People like you are the only reason I am still here in this hobby after 5 years of listening to complete mind numbing muppets... is because I live in hope of the next decent customer! :good:
 
Wasn't you BlueDragon, but not to worry, its been sorted now!
 
Interesting read! Many good points.

I guess I'm lucky since my local fish stores all seem great, even the chains like Petco & Petsmart. My local Petco even gave me some donor media to spike my tank, no questions asked.

Sometimes there isn't a knowledgable person available to help with my questions but that's why I do my own research before I go the the store in the first place.
 
This is a good thread.

My LFS never asks me any questions when I buy fish. I've mentioned cycling and stuff to the guy that runs it before so I like to think that he knows I'm a knowledgeable fish keeper so doesn't need to ask, but I've never heard them ask anyone questions or impart any knowledge unless asked.

I've been in there before and bought one cory and one cardinal before to add to my schools. Surely he can't remember from all the customers he's had what fish I already bought from him, so for all he knows I'm putting those fish by themselves.

Some people get annoyed when asked loads of questions and refused sales, but I'm actually a little saddened because I don't get this. In my LFS you really are free to buy whatever fish you want and put them in whatever terrible conditions you want, no questions asked.
 
There are some employees in my local chain store that will stand and talk to me. One of them is very interested in plants so they have more plants then other store locations. The best part is that we Give and Receive knowledge in these talks. They were having a problem in their home tank with their swords, i have them dosing traces and now they are doing fine. They have been talking to me about some species of fish that I want to keep. It's a respectful exchange each time I go. Unfortunately all of their tanks have ich every time I go. So I don't usually buy fish there.

Most people forget that there is always room to learn. My other chain store has a bunch of teenager employees who could care less about anything. They had a fit a few weeks ago when I bought some Bolivian rams and some platies for the same tank. They said that you can only have cichlids with other cichlids, which we know here that is not true. Instead of talking about it with them, they just said "Whatever dude, have fun with that" and netted them out.

I think in any case, being respectful in any situation is always best, whether customer or employee. Understanding that you can not possibly know everything there is to know on a subject is also a good idea.
 
Part of the trouble is, there is NO legal requirement for staff to have any kind of real training. Everything i have learnt has been the hard way, trial and error and this forum has been a god send!

Personally, I believe it SHOULD be a legal requirement that all staff worknig with animals (be it fish or furries) should at very least carry a Certificate if not a Diploma in the relevant subject.

It should also be a requirement that all aquatic shops be a member or OATA and OATA ought to provide training for all employees. The do provide training but aparently it isnt very comprehensive, its not compulsory and its expensive which no employers will cover the cost of. Its a shame because at very least, i know the course covers the Nitrogen Cycle!

It all boils down to money :no: a vicious cycle where no one employer is willing to spend the money to train their staff. Its a shame because that would make a fantastic selling point for any company!

A certain chain store does like to boast that they train staff however knowing several people who have completed the training, its not only 'not very comprehensive' but a fair bit of it is inacurate. So not very helpful.

The troubple with the shops is that its a business, for it to be run like any other retail shop, it needs to be kept simple. By law, no training is required to sell fish and once money has changed hands, the person who has purchased the fish is now liable for the care of that fish under the Animal Welfare Act. The shop has no further obligation to look after or replace that fish. Of course, most will because it would be poor customer service otherwise. But thats company policy, not law.

The long and short of it is... you dont go into a supermarket and ask staff to give you lessons in how to cook the products you are looking at, what they go well with, where they came from, whats the best way to keep them...

Realistically, any good information you get from an aquatics shop is to be appreciated, not expected. Do your own research first. No one is making you impulse buy anything, go in, write down the names of fish or plants you like, if there is few, ask nicely if they can reserve the fish for 24 hours or something, if you ask nicely, most shops will! Do some researh online, its what forums like this are for!

Personally, I have this website address and the PFK address on small cards i can give to customers so they can at least start doing their own research, even if i reach a few people... its a few fish helped and no doubt a few happier hobbiests.
 
Some people get annoyed when asked loads of questions and refused sales, but I'm actually a little saddened because I don't get this. In my LFS you really are free to buy whatever fish you want and put them in whatever terrible conditions you want, no questions asked.
I always ask questions while getting people fish unless I know them. The store I work at is relatively small, and since I usually work the same closing shift every day, I end up seeing the same people. But I always ask how big the tank is, if it has a heater (you have no idea how many people don't have heated tanks) and what's in it already. Especially when it comes to larger fish.
 

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