The benefits of cycling with plants?

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Jordan_Deus

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I've been reading up about fishless cycling, I understand the process and have made a post about it before which answered all my questions until now... I do intend on fishless cycling and I was intending on using plants throughout the cycle. After reading a bit more yesterday I thought about something, seeing as I'll have floating plants (Which I hear are ammonia sponges) among others won't the plants suck out all the ammonia before the bacteria have a chance to grow and break down that ammonia? I assume that if my plants can absorb 3 ppm of ammonia in 24 hours (I doubt this is possible in a moderately planted tank), then there would be no reason to cycle the tank because the plants are doing what the bacteria are supposed to do. What worries me is that the plants will suck out all the ammonia in about a week, this means the bacteria don't have enough time to grow to their full potential, what will mean I either have to add more ammonia/larger quantity of ammonia or slowly introduce small amounts of fish (3-4) every few weeks. The latter option could be an issue as I have a higher risk of ammonia spike and most of the fish I'm adding are schooling fish. If someone could shed some light on how exactly to cycle with plants that would help a lot. I understand that cycling with plants works great, I'm just not to sure how to go about doing it in away the will circumvent the issues I've stated.

If any more information is needed, plant species, tank size, fish load etc. I will happily provide them.
 
According to scientific studies, live fast-growing plants do use ammonia faster than the Nitrosomonas sp. bacteria, all else being equal. However, the nitrifying bacteria will still appear but you will be relying more on the plants.

I do not recommend adding any artificial ammonia when live plants are present. Ammonia after all is toxic to all life at certain levels, and I just think it is better to play it safe.

Floating plants are the best for this. Just make sure they are growing. Second, go easy on fish. I'm not meaning to suggest there is a risk, there really is not, but when one is not experienced with a method there is more chance something may cause a problem. Going slow removes this danger.

Byron.
 
According to scientific studies, live fast-growing plants do use ammonia faster than the Nitrosomonas sp. bacteria, all else being equal. However, the nitrifying bacteria will still appear but you will be relying more on the plants.

I do not recommend adding any artificial ammonia when live plants are present. Ammonia after all is toxic to all life at certain levels, and I just think it is better to play it safe.

Floating plants are the best for this. Just make sure they are growing. Second, go easy on fish. I'm not meaning to suggest there is a risk, there really is not, but when one is not experienced with a method there is more chance something may cause a problem. Going slow removes this danger.

Byron.
I was thinking cycling with fertilizers that contain ammonium, that way the risk is less to the plants. How else will I cycle the tank if I don't add ammonia?
 
I was thinking cycling with fertilizers that contain ammonium, that way the risk is less to the plants. How else will I cycle the tank if I don't add ammonia?

You do not have to "cycle" an aquarium with live plants, it just happens. Ammonia appears from fish, or other sources, and the bacteria will appear and away they go. The point of live plants is that the plants use most of the ammonia, they use it faster, and they do not produce nitrite. So this allows you to safely add some fish once the plants are growing. When you deliberately cycle by adding artificial ammonia, you are overloading the system with ammonia and forcing the bacteria to multiply, but this takes time. The plants do it instantly, provided you don't overload things.

Plant additives are fine. I always use Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement from the day the plants go in, but not more than one dose.
 
I see, so if I put in some ammonia with the plants, watch the numbers drop to zero. After this I add another dose and watch that drop to zero then add the first school of about 10-15 fish. Would this work or would I get a deadly ammonia spike that will kill off all the fish I add? I don't mind adding fish in to the tank slowly but I know that some schooling fish are better added together, something I assume wont work in a planted but un-cycled tank?
 
I will vary from Byron here (Sorry)...

I think cycling with ammonia is still a good idea, at least to get a sense for how much ammonia the tank (plants) are able to process in 24 hours.

I'd suggest adding all the plants you plan to have and leave them sit for a week. At the end of the week, add 1 ppm ammonia and then test in 24 hours. If the ammonia is completely gone after 24 hours... then you know that adding fish immediately is a possibility. This will enable the fish's waste to be processed and you'll likely never have to worry about a water change to lower ammonia before the regularly schedule water changes on a weekly basis.



Some sensitive plants would be more susceptible to ammonia, but these are not the types of plants that I would suggest for a beginner planted aquarist, nor for a 'fishless' cycle. As more sensitive plants can actually start to rot (if they aren't happy in their new environment) and produce ammonia rather than process it.
 
Eaglesaquarium is not incorrect, but I feel it is introducing another risk, and the whole point of "silent cycle" with live plants is avoiding all the risks. I have set up dozens of new tanks over the past decade, always with floating plants (and usually lower plants too, but always some floaters because they are so fast growing) and I have neer had ammonia or nitrite above zero. A couple times I did use a bacterial supplement, though it was probably overkill, but it can't hurt. Ammonia is a bit different, it is toxic to life. Keeping it simple seems preferable.

The toxicity of ammonia to plants varies significantly from species to species. Without citing all the scientific results, sensitive species would be harmed by 1 mg/l (= 1 ppm) ammonia, while some robust species have withstood levels as high as 26 mg/l (ppm). The point here is that this is not likely to have any effect on the establishment of nitrifying bacteria. The plants will still be taking up most, maybe even all, of the ammonia. We know they will do this no matter what, if they are growing. Which is why I recommend not adding artificial ammonia, provided there are floating plants that are obviously not dying but growing.

Byron.
 
I absolutely understand what Byron is saying.

The reason I suggest what I do is:

1 - I do not recommend sensitive species for new folks that would be harmed by 1ppm ammonia. (Stick to the more robust plants and you won't have a problem.)

2 - A silent cycle means a lot of plants. But, 'a lot' is a relative term. What an experienced aquarist means when they say 'a lot' and a silent cycle, isn't always what a new member means by 'a lot'. That minor dose of ammonia (***which isn't actually even 'lethal' to fish at most temp and pH***) isn't going to cause trouble for 'newbie' plants, but will give the aquarist a sense of how much ammonia the plants are actually using.

3 - Unlike fish, plants aren't something I am going to stay up at night worrying about. If I kill a single plant (highly unlikely at the dose and types of plants I am recommending) by this method to get a better sense for the safety for my fish when added... then so be it. Small price to pay to ensure the safety of the fish.


This would be a case of suspenders and a belt to protect the more valuable asset - the fish. Plants are cheap and will easily bounce back with minimal if any negative impact long term from this minimal exposure to ammonia.



And I will go one more step in this... plant additives as being suggested - ammonium nitrate... when added to the tank will dissolve and then become ions of ammonium and nitrate... and the ammonium that will be present from the addition of a plant fertilizer that uses 'ammonium' will balance between 'free ammonia' and ammonium, the exact same as the (artificial) ammonia that I am advocating. The only difference might be the concentration. I haven't tested to see how much ammonium nitrate added to a tank impacts the ammonium/ammonia of the tank based on the volume of the tank.


Ultimately, the ammonium will be ~99.5% and the free ammonia will be about 0.5%. This is less than the amount that would be lethal to fish in a short exposure. Note: extended exposures to low levels of ammonia can impact long term health of fish, even if the concentrations don't cause acute toxicity.

***
https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php
Using this calculator to find the toxicity of ammonia is where I am coming up with the statement regarding toxicity.
***
 
Both your comments make a lot of sense, and I think the best course of action is to test how much ammonia the plants take in. I am also considering simply performing a fish-less cycle and then adding the plants and fish. This would give me a lot more ammonia removing power. As my tank will not be Heavily planted, I'm leaning towards moderately planted. This would mean 1/3 -1/2 of the tank is planted. My tank is a 60 gallon tank and the stocking will eventually be:
2 BN pleco
10 Marble Hatchets
10 Black Phantom Tetras
15 Ember tetras
15 Dainty Cory

Assuming I take the route Byron has suggested, how do I add in 15 fish without getting an ammonia spike (they're not huge fish but they still have a bio-load)? I doubt the plants will be able to suck out all the ammonia that many fish produce. I am uneducated when it comes down to how much ammonia plants can take out of the water in a 24 hour time span. The plants I intend on using are Brazilian Water Ivy, Chain Swords and Dwarf Amazon swords.
I understand that if I grow plants in my tank the bacteria will naturally grow in the filter over time according to my bio-load. What I fail to grasp is how I add the fish into my tank without getting an ammonia spike that kills them.

Thank you both for your replies.
 
Byron, is there any chance you can walk me through the steps of how you set up your tank. This will help me understand how and when to add the fish, what else to add to the aquarium and more.

Thanks in advance.
 
I'm not Byron, but the answer is that in a tank that size 15 ember tetras wouldn't offer much in terms of bioload. (Even better would be to add about 9 at first, and then the other 6 after the 9 have their bioload taking care of things.)

Add whatever plants you want, and give them about a week to settle in. Then add the ember tetras and test your ammonia daily. It should not spike very high at all... use the link I provided above to monitor the true toxicity.

When free ammonia gets to 0.05 ppm, it becomes dangerous. Let it grow close to that before doing a massive water change to drop it. The higher the ammonia (up to that level) the faster the bacteria will grow. The plants will take care of the rest.

Once the ammonia starts to rise a bit, then fall... check the nitrite. The nitrite is actually far more dangerous for the fish. This can be dealt with by using salt to protect the fish from bringing the nitrite in. There's a calculation for how to do that. The tetras will be far more tolerant of any nitrite (and salt) than the others on the stocking list.

If you are fortunate, the plants will use enough of the ammonia (which never converts over to nitrite) that whatever is left for the bacteria to handle won't be much to worry about at all.

Once everything is at zero for a solid week, you can look to add a second group, the phantom tetras would be the next best choice, for the same reasons above. But by this point, the bacteria colony will be robust enough to take on a new bioload rather quickly. You may not need to do much more than merely monitor for that while.

After that, adding another group wouldn't be as big a deal at all as the new bioload would be a fraction of the current load and wouldn't cause a big bump. Mature colonies can handle this quickly.

As for 2 BN plecos, I'd recommend a pair, not two males. They will likely breed... but they won't be fighting for territory.
 
Thank you, this explanation clears everything up very well. The BN plecos will be a pair and I'll add them at the end because they have the largest bioload.

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Byron, is there any chance you can walk me through the steps of how you set up your tank. This will help me understand how and when to add the fish, what else to add to the aquarium and more.

Thanks in advance.

Before I get to this question...on your previous one, which is connected...

Assuming I take the route Byron has suggested, how do I add in 15 fish without getting an ammonia spike (they're not huge fish but they still have a bio-load)? I doubt the plants will be able to suck out all the ammonia that many fish produce. I am uneducated when it comes down to how much ammonia plants can take out of the water in a 24 hour time span. The plants I intend on using are Brazilian Water Ivy, Chain Swords and Dwarf Amazon swords.
I understand that if I grow plants in my tank the bacteria will naturally grow in the filter over time according to my bio-load. What I fail to grasp is how I add the fish into my tank without getting an ammonia spike that kills them.

If you have fast-growing plants and especially floating plants that are growing (all your mentioned plants are good for this--I am assuming the Brazilian Water Ivy is Brazilian Pennywort), it is almost impossible to add too many fish. I went into this topic with two experts, Tom Barr and Neale Monks. Enough said. However, as you are new to this, I would go slower than I myself would, and species by species with a few days apart will work. If the plants are growing, you will not see ammonia above zero, and never see nitrite. Eventually, nitrate maty appear, or it may remain zero permanently--this depends upon the fish load down the road and other factors. Nitrate in my tanks is between 0 and 5 ppm, and has been like this for 20 years; I rarely test nitrate, but when I do it is always the same.

Shoaling fish should always be added as the entire intended group if possible. This is more important with some species than others, and for several reasons. First, the fish always settle in faster and better the more there are, with every species. Second, those species that have an hierarchy within the shoal will develop this quickly in an aquarium; this is not going to be an issue with Ember Tetra or hatchetfish, and not likely with Black Phantom Tetra, but it is still a consideration. Third, territorial fish quickly develop their territories, and in an aquarium the limited space (no matter how large the tank, it is always going to be limited space to most fish) impacts this development. Not so critical with the fish mentioned (except the Bristlenose if they turn out to both be male), but worth keeping in mind. So, always add the entire intended group if you can.

So, to the method. Once the plants are in and showing signs of growth (expect some yellowing leaves especially from swords, this is natural, provided there are new leaves emerging from the centre of the crown. These new leaves is the sign that the plant is OK. The floating pennywort will be spreading, slowly at first.

After a few days, with the filter/heater functioning properly, the light on a timer (very important for fish and plants) working, plants growing...you can add the first species. Ember Tetras here. After a few days, Black Phantom Tetra, then hatchetfish, then cories, the BN. A few days apart, though this shouldn't be necessary, but no harm being cautious.

I have set up new tnaks like my 70g with 100 fish going in the first day. But the plants came from another tank, as did the chunks of wood, so bacteria on these would be present, and the plants were thriving. I had new filter media (completely) and new substrate (changed over to play sand). I've done this dozens of times. But I can quickly spot any problems. You can take is more slowly.

Byron.
 
Thank you for the clarification and explanation. I feel much more confident about this process now that I know what to do.
Again thanks a million.


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