Interesting paper on cycling

[anewbie]

https://academic.oup.com/ismecommun/article/5/1/ycaf212/8323200?login=false

(to give credit where due it was posted on another forum); It isn't complete scientifically (imho) but it does show the impact of live plants on cycling an aquarium - basically if the data is correct it shows the plants eating ammonia and otherwise all the test conditions cycled relatively fast 'cept for the one with plastic plants (i think you will have to read it to double check the results).

I believe it found bottle bacteria pointless but again double check as i only skimmed it.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I have been reading the paper for a while now. I need to do this in segments. But I have some observations about what I have read so far and some checking i need to do on the credentials of the researchers and the peer review process of the publisher

Also, I have 39 papers dealing with the ammonia oxidizing Archaea (AOA). Many of the very easliest one's came out of the same school as this one.:

Sauder LA, Engel K, Stearns JC, Masella AP, Pawliszyn R, Neufeld JD. Aquarium nitrification revisited: Thaumarchaeota are the dominant ammonia oxidizers in freshwater aquarium biofilters. PLoS One. 2011;6(8):e23281. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0023281. Epub 2011 Aug 16. PMID: 21858055; PMCID: PMC3156731.

Dr. Laura Sauder has several more papers dealing with the Archaea and cycle related issues,. Her work is not limited to aquariums. But her conclusion that the AOA dominate in aquariums is something with which I do not agree. What I do know is that is the case in some aquariums but this is not a universal. some tanks may not have any AOA ot may hav them but have more AOB.

I do not agree with her conclusion in the above paper. But I am very intrerested in the result from the paper which is the topic of this thread. The discovery of the Nitrospira strain which was able to proces ammonia top nitrate really peaked my curiosity. That and the discovery of the ammonia oxidising Archaea (AOA) made everyone rethink the whole cycing process in tanks as well as other settings.

In reading all of the papers I mentioned above I reaches a few conclusions which caused me to doubt some of the things I read. I also am not a scientist. However, I do have a BS in Psychology. Part of earning that involved both reading and conducting research. So, I do have a foundation in experimental design and the use of statistical analysis used to assess the reliability of results.

My curiosity about the cyle in tanks, with a focus on freshwater as it was/is what I do, began within the first year of setting up my very first tank. I did a fishless cycle then knowlittle about the process. But I was curious and that curiosity led me to Google Scholar and the research papers it can track down.

I do not agree with what anewbie concluded re bottled bacteria. What it showed in terms of the use of Cycle in Aquarium three was two things. The first is due to the fact that it contained Nitrobacter and not Nitrospira has an effect on cycling. Next, I am unsure how many of the bacteria in the bottle used were actually alive. The ammonia in tank #3 should have been a lot lower than reported if the AOB it should contain, if alive, should have gone to work fairly fast and ammonia levels should have been lower.

We know from the 3 papers from Dr. Hovanec et al between 1996 and 2001 that Nitrobactera do not do the nitrite to nitrate oxidising in tanks because they are able to do it on much higher levels of nitrite than Nitrospira. Further, originally the strain of notrite oxidizing bacteria dicosvere were not the same strain as the one later found to do the whole process.

The parer linked in the first post pretty much ignores the NOB and only deals with tthe “comammox” train. As far as I am aware both trypes exist.

Most of this discussion really belongs in the ScientificSection sub-forum. If folks are interested in this please start a thread and I will participate. So, I will end here with one last observation. Some time ago I learned that Dr. Hovanec's freshwater variety of his One and Only Nitrifying Bacteria now contained AOA as well as AOB.

I have used One and Only on a number of occasions in the past. I always used it to seed it when I set up my bio-farm. I also used foam meadia squeezings as well. It took me about 12-14 days to get the farm in full gear having cycled aout 15 Porer cube filters. These were going into about 220 gal.s of water across 8 tanks which would be immediately fully stocked to slightly overstocked.

 

[GaryE 135]

It all looks magical because we generally lack the resources and training to look for ourselves, and the microscopic world is challenging. I'm not trained to do my own research. We know it happens, and how is interesting it is, but it's still unclear.

We'll probably get there, but we're going to be uncertain about the details for a long time.

As with everything, I hope the researchers will disagree until a consensus emerges, and then I hope if more info comes in, that consensus will change. Once products are involved, my filters go up.

The world of bacteria and archaea is very complex - we live in the Age of Bacteria and it isn't humans that run this place! We don't even run ourselves without our fauna and flora. With the cycle and ammonia, we're dealing with a food source that can kill our fish, and diverse things will feed on that source. It's that way with all foods on this planet.

I treat the cycle as a process I can't name the parts of but can manage. I establish filters in planted, older tanks and install them in new tanks, along with plants from equally established set ups. I haven't lost fish or had symptoms of ammonia problems in a tank for decades.

For me, naming the bacteria and archaea isn't crucial. It's important for aquarists to accept that the cycle happens, and that managing it is essential. That information is established.

You don't want to oversimplify what we're looking at, but I haven't ever made the decision to become trained in how to analyze the details, and I'm not alone there. So we keep bringing the papers as they're published, and if we're so inclined, we keep reading them. If we aren't so inclined, we still respect a process we have to be involved in if we're going to keep fish alive in aquariums.

 

[Rusty_Shackleford 136]

FWIW I have some acquaintances that are working with nitrifying bacteria and this paper corroborates their work.
This stuff fascinates me.

 

[anewbie]

I'm glad and yet sad that the nitrification process takes a few days rather than a few century.

 

[Uberhoust]

Quite interesting, will read it more thoroughly. I was interested in the presence of plants in tank 1 and 2 and the similarity on when they got to the point of generating nitrate. The discussion mentions micro fauna being introduced via the plants, if this is the case it is any area I would consider re-assessment.

 

[bgarthe21 39]

I have read the paper (citing three tanks) a few times and while interesting, it could be improved upon. First….there are too many variables….fish species, water type, tank size, substrate makeup, food type and food amounts, filtration, plants vs no plants, temperature, and (unless I missed it) no mention of pH and KH which play in integral part of the nitrogenic process and the sampling size was too small. Learning about bottled bacteria and all is important, but test it all out maintaining other factors as constants….same fish, bioload factors, temperature, same pH and KH and GH, same food/food amounts, substrate, filtration, and tank size. Then one can compare the nitrogen cycle factors/types successfully because all the other factors are constant as opposed to one tank having a higher temp, lower pH, heavier bioload etc than another tank.

I am (respectfully) merely trying to get this sorted out with results that can be applied generally. As I see it, one could set out to do what was done with tank 1 but doing so with a much higher pH, higher bioload, for example, could greatly alter the results. All three of those tanks were not that much alike (had too many aforementioned variables) imho and thus any conclusions based on them is weak at best….especially regarding bottled bacteria.

 

[anewbie]

I am (respectfully) merely trying to get this sorted out with results that can be applied generally. As I see it, one could set out to do what was done with tank 1 but doing so with a much higher pH, higher bioload, for example, could greatly alter the results. All three of those tanks were not that much alike (had too many aforementioned variables) imho and thus any conclusions based on them is weak at best….especially regarding bottled bacteria.

It is rather both strange and sloppy that with a controlled environment they did not try to limit the variables so they could narrow in on the controlled.

 

[Rusty_Shackleford 136]

Look at figure 5. Populations of non traditional nitrifiers performing most of the nitrification.

 

[10 Tanks]

https://academic.oup.com/ismecommun/article/5/1/ycaf212/8323200?login=false

(to give credit where due it was posted on another forum); It isn't complete scientifically (imho) but it does show the impact of live plants on cycling an aquarium - basically if the data is correct it shows the plants eating ammonia and otherwise all the test conditions cycled relatively fast 'cept for the one with plastic plants (i think you will have to read it to double check the results).

I believe it found bottle bacteria pointless but again double check as i only skimmed it.

Hello. Haven't read the article, but find it interesting the authority wasn't a proponent of using bottled bacteria. I've used it since roughly 2006 to instantly cycle my fish tanks. I've used it as recently as last Fall to cycle my current Brassy Minnow Tank. I put in some plants a couple of weeks after I introduced the fish. My Minnows are thriving and unfortunately, so are my Ramshorn snails.

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[bgarthe21 39]

I, too, have used bottled bacteria to do the start up of 3 recent 33g tanks. Did fish in with daily Prime doses and daily bb in a bottle. I alternated between Fritz Zyme 7 and Seachem’s Stability. Did this for 10-12 days wo a WC and all was/is well. Had no NH3 spikes or nitrites. After 10-12 days, I did bb in a bottle every few days and continued to monitor. Not once did my Seachem’s Alert Tags change from the ideal yellow. For most of my fish keeping life, I’d start a new tank w seeded media and gradual fish introductions and I never had cycle issues……knock on wood.

 

[10 Tanks]

Hello again. I've used the API products with good results. The Water Treatment and Quick Start dosed according to the instructions seem to work well. Using these products and being very selective when choosing your fish will help you enjoy fish in your new tank right away.

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[anewbie]

i have another method; water change water change water change; old sponge filter; water change water change water change. Works everytime. takes 4 to 7 days for a full cycle.

 

[10 Tanks]

Excellent! Works great if you have a filter from a cycled tank. But, say you moved and sold all your tanks and wanted to jump start a new tank at your new place. You'd just need to fill a new tank and treat the water. Allow just a day or two for the water temperature to settle and it's ready for fish.

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[anewbie]

Excellent! Works great if you have a filter from a cycled tank. But, say you moved and sold all your tanks and wanted to jump start a new tank at your new place. You'd just need to fill a new tank and treat the water. Allow just a day or two for the water temperature to settle and it's ready for fish.

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There is always a filter you can move from somewhere to cycle an aquarium - but sometimes you ahve to be a bit more creative.