Tetra Small Community Tank

BryceHockey · Sep 24, 2008

Hey everyone, after some googling for fish forums, I believe I have found one that seems to have trustworthy members who will be willing to lend me some advice.

I have a 10 gallon freshwater tank, that has been running with the current fish since late January and they have done very well besides a case of ich that was quickly and easily treated. The tank started with two ottos, two Black Phantom tetras, two Pristella tetras, and six small neon tetras. Here's a quick picture, if any more information such as water levels is needed before giving advice let me know, although I test it often and all seems to be very consistent and healthy.

Note that the air stone was only there temporarily, it is now under the gravel in the back middle part of the tank. I apologize for the bad quality of the picture, you can't even see all of the fish and the gravel looks much brighter than it actually is.

Two months ago I lost a neon tetra to what probably was neon tetra disease (his color faded, and his spine became bent to the point where he was too weak to swim). Last month two more neons died from the exact same symptoms. No other fish have shown any signs of having the disease, although some neons have seemed to have a more green color than the blue (still blue, but when the lights are off it appears green), but they feed and swim very healthily.

So here are my questions, I have done research but would like an opinion from several people and not just the family owned pet store that I'm buying from.

1) I just recently found out that some live floating plants could very much improve the tank and make it more relative to the tetra's natural habitat. What live plants would everyone recommend? Preferably I would seek something that is easy to care for, and doesn't take up too much swimming space. Would the said plant(s) affect the water levels?

2) Currently the tank is down to three neons instead of six. The six seemed to live great together, even if it was a bit over the "inch of fish per gallon" rule. Would you personally suggest leaving the amount of fish as they are, or add 1 to 3 more neon or cardinals? I think that a mix of 3 and 3 of neon and cardinal tetras could be very nice, but am not sure if 10 fish plus two ottos is too much. They all are small but obviously it is only 10 gallons. One reason I would consider adding cardinals and not neons is to prevent the new fish from receiving the neon tetra disease, if somehow the current neons were carrying it.

Thank you in advance for any advice, I much appreciate it!
Bryce

Corleone · Sep 24, 2008

I've seen neons with the greenish stripe, as well as one order at the LFS that had almost no blue at all in the stripe. I'm not sure if they're the a captive breed of the same species or a different species entirely, but they'll shoal easily with regular neons, and I think they look better anyway.

1) Really, just about any plant will do - IME, fish aren't terribly picky. Valis is pretty much impossible to kill, and crypts can make for a nice low cover. Pennywort can also help with the shade effect that you're talking about with floating plants. Depending on the floating plant, you might want to get low-light plants, since something like duckweed will quickly cover most of the surface and stop bright light from getting through. Java moss is a nice easy to grow "carpet" plant, as well. I think some would look very nice growing on that rock.

2). Since the tank's been running since January, it's probably reasonably mature. 1.5 inches per gallon is usually reasonable, 2 with good filtration and maintenance - some people go past that successfully. It's a bit riskier with small tanks, since problems will develop quicker if they come, but stocking is more about water quality and maintenance than counting inches - that rule's there to keep new tanks and new keepers out of the most common trouble, in a mature tank it's almost always an underestimate with small fish. That said, they're tetras - you're not exactly packing in the bioload.

BryceHockey · Sep 24, 2008

Ah ok, that's very helpful. Thanks much!

I will research the said plant types a bit more, the local fish store that we go to specializes in freshwater plants, so I'm sure they will have a good selection.

In time I'd love to get rid of the fake plants and add natural plants, and I'm sure the fish would love it too. However I know you can't just add plants in a minute, it's a more delicate process.

Syphoniera · Sep 25, 2008

BryceHockey said:
Ah ok, that's very helpful. Thanks much!

I will research the said plant types a bit more, the local fish store that we go to specializes in freshwater plants, so I'm sure they will have a good selection.

In time I'd love to get rid of the fake plants and add natural plants, and I'm sure the fish would love it too. However I know you can't just add plants in a minute, it's a more delicate process.

Hello, nice to meet you, and what a lovely tank!

Sorry to hear about your fish losses, but I thought I'd best just mention that Neon Tetra disease can attack other fish, so Cardinals may not be automatically immune and you might as well get whatever fish you'd prefer.

http

/www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/hdntd.htm

... This disease was originally described in Neon Tetras, but can affect many other species of fish. ...

Also, there is a possibility that it could have been a mycobacterial infection, regrettably common, if often misdiagnosed.

http

/www.fishdeals.com/fish_diseases/curved_spine/

But, obviously, in neither case does this mean that healthy fish are doomed to contagion, especially when in a good environment.

I hope you'll pardon my curiosity if I ask why adding plants is a 'more delicate process' - were you going high-tech, low-tech, just adding plants?
Because as you may be aware, healthy, live plants act to help maintain good water conditions, besides providing shelter for fish.

http

/www.aquabotanic.com/plants_and_biol..._filtration.htm

... Plants are much more than tank decorations; they help keep the fish healthy. Nitrogenous compounds, particularly ammonia and nitrite, are extremely toxic to fish. Hobbyists have for many years relied heavily on the bacterial process of nitrification (i.e., ‘biological filtration’) to convert these toxic compounds into non-toxic nitrates. Hobbyists and even retailer of aquatic plants too easily ignore nitrogen uptake by aquarium plants or assume (incorrectly) that aquarium plants mainly take up nitrates.

Aquatic Plants Prefer Ammonium Over Nitrates ...

But if I may, I'd suggest quarantining plants for at least a few days whenever you do add them, speaking as one who"s brought in nasties ranging from anchor worms to black brush algae on new plants.
And you might consider hanging onto any small snails that ride along: I wish I had, as they're the only things that'll clean off small plant leaves without destruction.

I do hope there will be pics whenever you are planted up.
It's easy to see you really have a flair.

BryceHockey · Sep 25, 2008

Thanks much for the links and information, Syph. I have always been told, or under the impression that adding plants would change the water levels quickly at first, and wasn't a good idea if there were fish in the tank. If I quarantined them, would there be any major change in the water levels or anything that might hurt the fish once added? I'm very new to the whole live plant thing but definitely would like to convert from these annoying artificial ones. Also, considering that the fish store I would go to is a 20 minute drive, is it better to add plants slowly rather than replacing all artificial plants in one day?

As far as the Neon Tetra disease, I'm pretty sure that all carriers have moved on. Thanks for the helpful article though.

Thanks everyone for the help,
Bryce

Mr Bliss · Sep 25, 2008

Adding (or uprooting and replanting) plants in an established tank can cause an ammonia spike, because you'll be disturbing the substrate and potentially stirring up some organic waste. Just do a normal water change after planting and everything should be fine, though.

Aside from that, plants will have only positive effects on your water (as long as they're actual aquatic plants). They may soften the water slightly over time but probably not to a noticeable degree unless you never do water changes.

Some plants I'd recommend for that tank:

Hygrophila (a number different-looking species, all easy to keep, such as "dwarf hygro" H. polysperma, "water wisteria" H. difformis, "temple plant" H. corymbosa) might be a nice replacement for the fake plants if you want to maintain a similar look. Avoid any reddish color morphs, they require more light. All of the above will grow all the way to the surface, and can actually be grown entirely floating as well (water wisteria can look very nice if grown this way; the others less so).

Some Java Fern might look nice growing on the rock.

edit: the Temple Plant is probably a bit massive for a 10gal, so I'd go with either of the other two (or both).

BryceHockey · Sep 25, 2008

Thank you for the plant suggestions, Hygrophila seems to be a very solid choice for my situation.

I read most of the stickies in the Plants forum, and it all is a bit overwhelming. The article on how well-grown plants will eliminate algae is not surprising, however I'd hate for my two ottos to have no food (they won't eat the bloodworms or algae wafers I have put in, in the past, as another sticky suggested they would). Will algae still grow lightly as long as the light is able to come through and hit the tank sides and gravel in some parts?

Is quarantining something that should definitely be done for plants, or are the odds decent that I can put the plants into the tank after buying, without hurting the fish with any diseases? This question doesn't come from laziness, so much as a lack of resources and money.

I apologize for all the questions but am very thankful that you all are willing to answer!

Syphoniera · Sep 25, 2008

BryceHockey said:
Thanks much for the links and information, Syph. I have always been told, or under the impression that adding plants would change the water levels quickly at first, and wasn't a good idea if there were fish in the tank. If I quarantined them, would there be any major change in the water levels or anything that might hurt the fish once added? I'm very new to the whole live plant thing but definitely would like to convert from these annoying artificial ones. Also, considering that the fish store I would go to is a 20 minute drive, is it better to add plants slowly rather than replacing all artificial plants in one day?

As far as the Neon Tetra disease, I'm pretty sure that all carriers have moved on. Thanks for the helpful article though.

Thanks everyone for the help,
Bryce

Hi, Bryce,
I've yet to hear of plants changing anything in any but a positive fashion.
Of course, I'm frequently wrong, lol.
The addition of fertilizers might, I suppose, although I've never heard of any problems - but personally I use nothing in the water column but a little Flourish...
co2 injection might, but there again, I've never used that, and am in fact converting my tanks over to the Walstad method.

Until recently, I just manually checked newly purchased plants over and installed them, and I expect that's more common than anything else, and rarely produces problems.
You'd likely be fine simply doing this.

The point of quarantining plants is simply to try to prevent any dreadfuls from entering your tank.
Ich, for example, can only live a few days without finding a host.

The quarantine also gives you a further chance to discover any annoying hair algae which might infect one plant, with evil plots to get them all.

And if you don't have a lighted q-tank to put the plants in, you could use a plastic storage bin or anything of the type which has never been contaminated with soap/detergents/chemicals, filled with (treated) water and a wee bit of Flourish to tide them over, and use a lamp to provide light.

The odds are on no problems being present, and any which might be present are probably best dealt with by simple isolation.

If you do want to disinfect your plants - which could kill them, or result in most or all of the current leaves being shed:

http

/www.aquajake.com/blog/planting-the-...efore-or-after/

I only started using a bleach dip because of problems I'd encountered - but there may not be any, or ones which will die off within a few days without a host such as the fish often seen swimming in plant tanks in the average LFS, providing ammonia.

You may well be best off not disinfecting, but checking the plants over manually before and after quarantining for several days - and keeping your plants undamaged, fertilized, and under light.

If you can get all of the plants you want in one go, save the extra trip, get the planting done and over with.
The fish may not like the disruption, but they'll be happy with the result once you're done.
And it's only a 10 gallon - and you clearly have enough taste and planning skill to sort out what you'd like to do before diving into the tank, without having to fuss around, like some of the rest of us.
Besides, while this likely doesn't apply to your fish, altering the decor can cause confusion in territorial boundry lines and it would probably be better if the fish are only subjected to any such potential stress once rather than repeatedly.

I don't know if you have an inert substrate, or if you've considered root tabs even just for an initial boost? but a bit of Flourish really does help.
Some low-light plants, as you may or may not know, don't react well to Excel, but I don't know which ones.
Anacharis/egeria densa is highly sensitive, anyway.
Just a few things to consider, and I hope I haven't presented this as anything complicated because it's not.
It's just a step toward setting up a functional system where life supports life in the glass boxes of our dreams.

BryceHockey · Sep 26, 2008

I have just planted a Wisteria and a Rotala Indica, and can already feel a difference in the tank! The neons, who have been hiding a lot lately, are swimming all around the plants, and the otos are taking a snack on algae under the shade of the Wisteria. Thanks everyone who helped me better understand live plants, your time is much appreciated. :thanks: