Tank Readings

[sallyann]

You should always know what your basseline readings are from your tap water so yes test it for ph, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

gravel vac each time you do a water change, goldies can be quite messy so good to make sure the substrate doesn't build up waste.

Ok, tap water eadings as follows.
As you suspected, Nitrate at 0
nitrite 0
ammonia 0
ph 8.2, lower than last week.

 

[waterdrop]

MW, does sallyann know whether her water authority uses chlorine or chloramine to kill bacteria in the water? (haven't followed this thread)

 

[sallyann]

MW, does sallyann know whether her water authority uses chlorine or chloramine to kill bacteria in the water? (haven't followed this thread)

I have no idea what they use, why?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

MW, does sallyann know whether her water authority uses chlorine or chloramine to kill bacteria in the water? (haven't followed this thread)

i think chloramine is used much more standardly in the UK than in the USA so virtually every water conditioner you can get over here works on both (put it this way, i've never seen one which say's it doesn't do both..... and I've spent A LOT of time in fish shops!!). why?

 

[waterdrop]

Oh, I thought it was the other way around and more US systems had switched to chloramine procedure. Can't judge by the dechlor products as virtually all of ours are designated for both now too. The reason I mention it is minor. sallyann was taking a look at that high pH of 8.2 in the tap water and I was thinking of the business of pH changing a bit after tap water sits an hour or so. I can't remember exactly but I think this might be mostly with chlorine systems where the chlorine gases out in an hour or so, thus changing the pH a little. Can't remember which direction this sends the pH, can you MW?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Oh, I thought it was the other way around and more US systems had switched to chloramine procedure. Can't judge by the dechlor products as virtually all of ours are designated for both now too. The reason I mention it is minor. sallyann was taking a look at that high pH of 8.2 in the tap water and I was thinking of the business of pH changing a bit after tap water sits an hour or so. I can't remember exactly but I think this might be mostly with chlorine systems where the chlorine gases out in an hour or so, thus changing the pH a little. Can't remember which direction this sends the pH, can you MW?

i may well be wrong..... i've always assumed we have both.

you could be right, i know in water with high Co2 the pH goes down and if you leave the Co2 to gas off the pH will raise. I've not heard of chlorine/chloramine affecting pH though to be totally honest so you're guess is as good as mine!

regardles of that anyway, goldies been in this water for 10 years now, if the pH was gonna cause a problem it would have done by now i think

 

[sallyann]

Oh, I thought it was the other way around and more US systems had switched to chloramine procedure. Can't judge by the dechlor products as virtually all of ours are designated for both now too. The reason I mention it is minor. sallyann was taking a look at that high pH of 8.2 in the tap water and I was thinking of the business of pH changing a bit after tap water sits an hour or so. I can't remember exactly but I think this might be mostly with chlorine systems where the chlorine gases out in an hour or so, thus changing the pH a little. Can't remember which direction this sends the pH, can you MW?

Ok, I looked at yorkshire water website, it even has advice on treating the water for fish keeping, Chlorine is added, and it does say that it naturally disspaits if left to stand, but can be hastened by aerating the water , our water is med soft and water hardeness 37.1, whatever that means!!

 

[waterdrop]

yes, definately a minor and unimportant detail, not an issue, goldie could care less! You are right about the co2 and that could be the only thing I was remembering at any rate.

And yes, you are right that both UK and USA no doubt have plenty of water systems of both types and probably not even the public health authorities have a good count. A whole interesting (well, to some of us nerds!) story about how chlorines combine up with organics to produce carcinogenic things... thus the move to chloramines but the very latest research calls even that into question, sigh!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Ok, I looked at yorkshire water website, it even has advice on treating the water for fish keeping, Chlorine is added, and it does say that it naturally disspaits if left to stand, but can be hastened by aerating the water , our water is med soft and water hardeness 37.1, whatever that means!!

got a link?

thats the difference between you and me as fishkeepers i think waterdrop, for you it's always the science behind it, for me i try to think practically..... if it aint broke, don't fix it!

 

[waterdrop]

OK, not sure of the units sallyann has been given. A value of 37.1 would seem to refer to hardness in mg/L units possibly (but whether carbonate hardness or general hardness we don't know.) The generality she's been given doesn't fit. A value of 37.1 would translate to 2 degrees of German carbonate hardness, which would place it in the "extremely soft" category on most people's scales. Each German degree is 17.9mg/L of concentration.

If the 37.1 indeed represents mg/L of carbonate hardness, then that would fit perfectly with the sudden pH swings, as 2dgH just isn't going to buffer pH hardly at all. All of this is academic probably. I leave it to you MW to decide whether to recommend any actions. The usual tools for buffering are 1 teaspoon of Sodium Bicarbonate (pure kitchen baking soda) per 50 litres of water to start, then remeasure KH and see if you want more. KH=5 will hold pH stable for a week or so generally and baking soda acts quite fast so can be helpful in fishless. The slower acting, better for fish, tool is to put a very small part of a handful of crushed coral into a mesh pouch in the filter and watch it raise KH and pH after about a week or two, or in her case since pH is already up there, it probably wouldn't raise it more, but would probably protect against the drops.

~~waterdrop~~
ps. Yes, you have to watch out for me as I am easily entertained by what I consider the fascinating little science stuff and will go on about it whether it is really needed or not! And always important to remember that I'm mostly just a good "scribe" and have not yet "re-earned my stripes" as a modern experienced fishkeeper!

 

[Miss Wiggle]

OK, not sure of the units sallyann has been given. A value of 37.1 would seem to refer to hardness in mg/L units possibly (but whether carbonate hardness or general hardness we don't know.) The generality she's been given doesn't fit. A value of 37.1 would translate to 2 degrees of German carbonate hardness, which would place it in the "extremely soft" category on most people's scales. Each German degree is 17.9mg/L of concentration.

Thats why I asked for the link, not quite sure what the water company mean.

If the 37.1 indeed represents mg/L of carbonate hardness, then that would fit perfectly with the sudden pH swings, as 2dgH just isn't going to buffer pH hardly at all. All of this is academic probably. I leave it to you MW to decide whether to recommend any actions. The usual tools for buffering are 1 teaspoon of Sodium Bicarbonate (pure kitchen baking soda) per 50 litres of water to start, then remeasure KH and see if you want more. KH=5 will hold pH stable for a week or so generally and baking soda acts quite fast so can be helpful in fishless. The slower acting, better for fish, tool is to put a very small part of a handful of crushed coral into a mesh pouch in the filter and watch it raise KH and pH after about a week or two, or in her case since pH is already up there, it probably wouldn't raise it more, but would probably protect against the drops.

yes if anything a small handful of crushed coral would be my recommendation. however weather that's necessary or not i'm not sure.

sallyanne do you know if the pH continues to drop over time if left or if it stabilises at a certain level? if you don't know and feel like doing a little experiment then get a glass of tap wateer, stick it on the windowsill or something and test it daily, see if the pH just keeps falling or at what point it becomes stable.

ps. Yes, you have to watch out for me as I am easily entertained by what I consider the fascinating little science stuff and will go on about it whether it is really needed or not! And always important to remember that I'm mostly just a good "scribe" and have not yet "re-earned my stripes" as a modern experienced fishkeeper!

ha ha you do, but I think it's good. This is certainly not the first time you've got me thinking about something sciency that I probably would not otherwise have considered. Were it not for people like you always wanting to know 'why' and pushing back the boundaries we'd all still be sat in caves.

you do yourself a dis-service though, you may not have been keeping fish all that long (2nd time around anyway........ in fact as you don't actually have any fish yet can you say you've kept fish in the modern way at all!??) but you're advice is generally spot on, well thought out and well written. what more could you want?!

 

[sallyann]

OK, not sure of the units sallyann has been given. A value of 37.1 would seem to refer to hardness in mg/L units possibly (but whether carbonate hardness or general hardness we don't know.) The generality she's been given doesn't fit. A value of 37.1 would translate to 2 degrees of German carbonate hardness, which would place it in the "extremely soft" category on most people's scales. Each German degree is 17.9mg/L of concentration.

Thats why I asked for the link, not quite sure what the water company mean.

If the 37.1 indeed represents mg/L of carbonate hardness, then that would fit perfectly with the sudden pH swings, as 2dgH just isn't going to buffer pH hardly at all. All of this is academic probably. I leave it to you MW to decide whether to recommend any actions. The usual tools for buffering are 1 teaspoon of Sodium Bicarbonate (pure kitchen baking soda) per 50 litres of water to start, then remeasure KH and see if you want more. KH=5 will hold pH stable for a week or so generally and baking soda acts quite fast so can be helpful in fishless. The slower acting, better for fish, tool is to put a very small part of a handful of crushed coral into a mesh pouch in the filter and watch it raise KH and pH after about a week or two, or in her case since pH is already up there, it probably wouldn't raise it more, but would probably protect against the drops.

yes if anything a small handful of crushed coral would be my recommendation. however weather that's necessary or not i'm not sure.

sallyanne do you know if the pH continues to drop over time if left or if it stabilises at a certain level? if you don't know and feel like doing a little experiment then get a glass of tap wateer, stick it on the windowsill or something and test it daily, see if the pH just keeps falling or at what point it becomes stable.

ps. Yes, you have to watch out for me as I am easily entertained by what I consider the fascinating little science stuff and will go on about it whether it is really needed or not! And always important to remember that I'm mostly just a good "scribe" and have not yet "re-earned my stripes" as a modern experienced fishkeeper!

ha ha you do, but I think it's good. This is certainly not the first time you've got me thinking about something sciency that I probably would not otherwise have considered. Were it not for people like you always wanting to know 'why' and pushing back the boundaries we'd all still be sat in caves.

you do yourself a dis-service though, you may not have been keeping fish all that long (2nd time around anyway........ in fact as you don't actually have any fish yet can you say you've kept fish in the modern way at all!??) but you're advice is generally spot on, well thought out and well written. what more could you want?!

The link is www.yorkshirewater.com

Don't know how to post the page on this web site, anyway if you got to that page, and type in your postcode, it will give you the water hardness, their is a converter on that page too, if any of you Science buffs want to have a look!

The ph, starts off high, then seems to stay at 7.4, after about 3 days, would be interesting to test the water again in a weeks time to see what the ph is though.
Heavy stuff this ph business!! LOL!

 

[Miss Wiggle]

there's a conversion thing on there, mine came out at 57.1 (doesn't tell you what the measurement is) which converts to 7.994 german hardness, 142.75 mg/l as calcium carbonate or 9.9925 English (Clarke) degrees

sallyanne will you go through the conversion thing and tell us what yours comes out at.

i'd do a test with the pH and see what it ends up like after a week or two, just out of curiosity if nothing else.

if you do decide you need some crushed coral to buffer it i think i've a spare bag sat around I can pop some in the post for you

 

[sallyann]

there's a conversion thing on there, mine came out at 57.1 (doesn't tell you what the measurement is) which converts to 7.994 german hardness, 142.75 mg/l as calcium carbonate or 9.9925 English (Clarke) degrees

sallyanne will you go through the conversion thing and tell us what yours comes out at.

i'd do a test with the pH and see what it ends up like after a week or two, just out of curiosity if nothing else.

if you do decide you need some crushed coral to buffer it i think i've a spare bag sat around I can pop some in the post for you

Ok, just done conversion,
english (clarke) degrees is 6.4925

German hardness is 5.194

I will keep an eye on the ph, but I do think it stays at 7.4, but as i am new to testing, it would be interesting to see, is it unusual for ph to drop then?

Thanks for the crushed coral offer, I might take you up on that, depending on the ph readings, facinating stuff this!

 

[Miss Wiggle]

waterdrop's much better than me on hardness so i'll wait for him to chip in and comment on your scores.

but the pH is affected by a number of factors, including the kH, stuff in the tank, other chemicals in the water etc etc.

you're pH will sometimes be stable as anything, sometimes will fluctuate up and down, sometimes will gradually lower or raise to a point and stay there and will sometimes continue falling and completely crash....... depends on a lot of things tbh!

Glad you're finding all this interesting though, the more you learn and understand the better fishkeeper you'll be.