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xanthianacid
Fish Crazy
My fishkeeping obsession stemmed from my 4 yo's desire to keep fish initially. He is a unique little lad and he asked for at least 8 months every time consistantly that the only gift he wanted for christmas was a FISH TANK!!! He gets a little upset at the thought of eating fish.. at this stage he had only just turned 4 (good friday we made a big thing of going out and buying fish for lent). He couldn't eat it. Where did a four year old learn to care so much about fish? It all came from him. As parents we have learnt everything about responsible fishkeeping as a response to my son's insistance. His tank is easily the best in the house in terms of maturity and stability - chocolate gourami's are his centrepiece in his tank - another element of the tank that he personally insisted apon. My husband got bitten with MTS before I did, he owns a 4' tank community and a desktop tank. For my birthday I have a betta boy set up (it's meant for 4 but I thought that was cruel and set it up for two only.) I also have a 2' community with female bettas, gouramis and a bn. Hubby did all the initial research, he brought a book on responsible fishkeeping because he wanted to know everything - but this took a four year old boy and his consistancy for this to come about.
So the points here are:
A child who has the desire can be an effective fishkeeper through learning as they go (he helps with everything, even water testing). It is a fantastic thing for a young child to have a fish keepers heart and have fish welfare in mind. A child can help teach adults.
I think that it has taught him heaps. He still has stubborn desires like he wants a larger shoal of panda corys etc but he's learnt to accept that is overstocking and the health of his other fish is more important. This is all important stuff that is learnt by everyone, but he'll be a better fishkeeper when he's older because of it.
I wonder about DwarfDude and others who are younger fishkeepers (teens now) and what age it was they got bitten, because alot of these people have taught me heaps and I trust his advice above some others here.
Thats my 5c worth.
So the points here are:
A child who has the desire can be an effective fishkeeper through learning as they go (he helps with everything, even water testing). It is a fantastic thing for a young child to have a fish keepers heart and have fish welfare in mind. A child can help teach adults.
I think that it has taught him heaps. He still has stubborn desires like he wants a larger shoal of panda corys etc but he's learnt to accept that is overstocking and the health of his other fish is more important. This is all important stuff that is learnt by everyone, but he'll be a better fishkeeper when he's older because of it.
I wonder about DwarfDude and others who are younger fishkeepers (teens now) and what age it was they got bitten, because alot of these people have taught me heaps and I trust his advice above some others here.
Thats my 5c worth.
Fishist
Fish Fanatic
I agree with many on this subject. Keeping fish and other pets is a great educational tool for kids, from teaching responsibility to the reality of life and death itself. But this should be done with the utmost responsibility from the adult/parent and their full involvement is required when keeping fish, just as it is with everything else.
dwarfgourami
Fish Connoisseur
The general verdict seems to be that a lot of the information on that website is misleading or wrong, and that we take issue with the suggestion that any set-up involving animals can be simple enough for a young child to take sole responsibility for.
On the other hand, a lot of us fishkeeping parents feel that responsible children (or children who are MADE to think in a responsible way) will grow into excellent fishkeepers if given a helping hand- and won't that be a good day for the world of fishkeeping!
There also seems to be a justified feeling that an irresponsible attitude is not the sole prerogative of childhood. Think how many of us rely on the advice and exertise of the teenagers on the forum. And then think of how much time is spent on this forum alone sorting out problems caused by irresponsible or impulsive purchases made by people considerably older than 5. If we can all train our offspring in the ways of fishkeeping while they are still malleable, perhaps in 20 years time we'll hear less of bala sharks stuck in 10 gallon tanks. That will be the day!
On the other hand, a lot of us fishkeeping parents feel that responsible children (or children who are MADE to think in a responsible way) will grow into excellent fishkeepers if given a helping hand- and won't that be a good day for the world of fishkeeping!
There also seems to be a justified feeling that an irresponsible attitude is not the sole prerogative of childhood. Think how many of us rely on the advice and exertise of the teenagers on the forum. And then think of how much time is spent on this forum alone sorting out problems caused by irresponsible or impulsive purchases made by people considerably older than 5. If we can all train our offspring in the ways of fishkeeping while they are still malleable, perhaps in 20 years time we'll hear less of bala sharks stuck in 10 gallon tanks. That will be the day!
OP
OP
Tokis-Phoenix
^_^
My point in all this was;
a. You cannot deny that some of the sites advice was not fantastic or should even be carried out.
b. Fish don't make great pets for children without the parent doing the majority of the hard or more complicated work. I am sure some of you here have great kids which understand keeping fish is alot more than putting them in a tank and stocking it, But i think most young children would be incabable of looking after the fish well if it were not for a lot of supervision from the parent, thus who's pet is it realy if the parent is doing all the hard or complicated work? My fiance will feed my fish from time to time, but i would certainly not like the notion they are his pets because of that small chore.
So when it comes down to it, fish are not good pets for a child if the adult is not highly involved and wether the pet is theirs or parents i think is debatable.
I do think pets are good for children as a learning experience but if they should keep them they should be given good advice about doing so and i do not think the site was doing a good job of this.
a. You cannot deny that some of the sites advice was not fantastic or should even be carried out.
b. Fish don't make great pets for children without the parent doing the majority of the hard or more complicated work. I am sure some of you here have great kids which understand keeping fish is alot more than putting them in a tank and stocking it, But i think most young children would be incabable of looking after the fish well if it were not for a lot of supervision from the parent, thus who's pet is it realy if the parent is doing all the hard or complicated work? My fiance will feed my fish from time to time, but i would certainly not like the notion they are his pets because of that small chore.
So when it comes down to it, fish are not good pets for a child if the adult is not highly involved and wether the pet is theirs or parents i think is debatable.
I do think pets are good for children as a learning experience but if they should keep them they should be given good advice about doing so and i do not think the site was doing a good job of this.
you implying something chook?Angry_Platy said:
I agree with Wuv,the site was good in the day and did really help me with fish keeping but not this segmant. this website is run by many different people so the two you see on the front page cant take responsibiliy but i admit that page was rather bad
DD
Bloo
~ I learn something new ~ ~~~~ every day ~~~~
Tokis, no offence intended, but it strikes me that you are not a parent or do not have hands-on experience in the upbringing of children. The vast majority of parents would not give a child the full responsibility of looking after a pet, or expect the child to be fully responsible for that animal(s). And of course the pet belongs to the child even if the parent does most of the hard work. Do you expect kids to be say “xx” years old before they are considered capable or responsible? It just does not work like that. Responsibility is something that is taught from a very young age. That's part of growing up.
There are loads of websites out there with loads of information. There is no regulatory body to monitor the content and accuracy of these. In this day and age, most people using the www, will not just use one source of information as the end all and be all and treat it as gospel. It's not common sense. Some people do not exercise "common sense" but such is life !
Most parents will do the best they can for kids - and that includes giving advice they perceive best.
There are loads of websites out there with loads of information. There is no regulatory body to monitor the content and accuracy of these. In this day and age, most people using the www, will not just use one source of information as the end all and be all and treat it as gospel. It's not common sense. Some people do not exercise "common sense" but such is life !
Most parents will do the best they can for kids - and that includes giving advice they perceive best.
619 Fish GOD
Fish Crazy
Firstly,I agree with must of this stuff on this post but real come on, i'am 12 years old and since i was 4 i've kept Rabbits,Birds and FISH without MUCH HELP FROM Mum or Dad so don't underistamate kids.
Ps-I saw this mini Aquruim kit at a lps for 14.95
And it included-
1 gallon tank
1 goldfish
1 packet os fish food
HELP FROM Mum or Dad so don't underistamate kids.Ps-I saw this mini Aquruim kit at a lps for 14.95
And it included-
1 gallon tank
1 goldfish
1 packet os fish food
OP
OP
Tokis-Phoenix
^_^
Whats with the aquarium kit? sounds like a cruel deal to me...619 Fish GOD said:
xanthianacid
Fish Crazy
Dwarf Dude and 619 Fish GOD prove the point, toxis, that responsible fish keeping can begin very young.
Bloozoo also gives a great point that with any pet, quite often it's the parent's who may be doing a good portion of the work, but involving our children in every step, including the testing of the water is important. My son has improved in every other way, not just fishkeeping - but in alot of ways it's because of fishkeeping. He remembers alot of things like common and scientific names, how they get along with other fish, why he can't have too many fish in his tank, how interesting they are to observe for long periods of time.
Just the other day my hubby and I set up a divided tank for two new betta splendons. We didn't mention it to the children but it took less than two minutes of my son being in the house from his drop off from child care for him to notice. He came out of the study telling me that I had two new betta splendons on my desk, he actually called them betta splendons, although aware they are also called siamese fighting fish too! He might not be up on the subtlies of every little detail, but he's going to have the knowledge he's accumulating now and be an excellent fish keeper when he's older. Why rob a child of this kind of experience just because of a little ignorance on your part?
Children are people too.
Bloozoo also gives a great point that with any pet, quite often it's the parent's who may be doing a good portion of the work, but involving our children in every step, including the testing of the water is important. My son has improved in every other way, not just fishkeeping - but in alot of ways it's because of fishkeeping. He remembers alot of things like common and scientific names, how they get along with other fish, why he can't have too many fish in his tank, how interesting they are to observe for long periods of time.
Just the other day my hubby and I set up a divided tank for two new betta splendons. We didn't mention it to the children but it took less than two minutes of my son being in the house from his drop off from child care for him to notice. He came out of the study telling me that I had two new betta splendons on my desk, he actually called them betta splendons, although aware they are also called siamese fighting fish too! He might not be up on the subtlies of every little detail, but he's going to have the knowledge he's accumulating now and be an excellent fish keeper when he's older. Why rob a child of this kind of experience just because of a little ignorance on your part?
Children are people too.
OP
OP
Tokis-Phoenix
^_^
I not trying to deny young children pets or anything, geez, read my last post. I agree pets are ok for kids if there's parent doing loads of supervision like i said in my last post. I don't see why everyone has to have a go at me for being the bad person here when im agreeing with everyone anyway.
xanthianacid
Fish Crazy
One thing, the site did suck for wrong/bad advice for parents to pass on to their children, and ditto for many other sites. Hell there's a truckload of crap on the net, you just have to avoid it or you'd go insane. I'll give you that.
See the thing is I do think that the fish in my son's tank are just that - his. It was his intention and his decision even at 4! There is no denying in my opinion that some children have more sense than adults. I know of children as young as 6 who have basically taken over the care of younger siblings completely because of mental health or drug related problems of their parent/s. Children can and will have the capacity to rise to meet the needs of their situation, even when very young.
Now I do agree that some children and parents don't have a clue about fishkeeping etc and that's a shame. But it would make a big difference to other children if they were getting correct advice from other children as well - ie when my son takes more responsibility he's learnt from us he can pass it onto his peers, and hopefully just as other stuff has been unlearnt so can bad fishkeeping practices. This also spreads out into other areas of knowlege of course. How about a child correcting an adult on fishkeeping? I bet it's happened!
And by the way, tokis, (spelling mistake before unintentional), I do think you are a good person because you come up with these ideas for discussion. These are just facets of points of view of the larger diamond. The more ideas, however different, can teach others/ benefit others and generally expand on the way one thinks, don't you think?
See the thing is I do think that the fish in my son's tank are just that - his. It was his intention and his decision even at 4! There is no denying in my opinion that some children have more sense than adults. I know of children as young as 6 who have basically taken over the care of younger siblings completely because of mental health or drug related problems of their parent/s. Children can and will have the capacity to rise to meet the needs of their situation, even when very young.
Now I do agree that some children and parents don't have a clue about fishkeeping etc and that's a shame. But it would make a big difference to other children if they were getting correct advice from other children as well - ie when my son takes more responsibility he's learnt from us he can pass it onto his peers, and hopefully just as other stuff has been unlearnt so can bad fishkeeping practices. This also spreads out into other areas of knowlege of course. How about a child correcting an adult on fishkeeping? I bet it's happened!
And by the way, tokis, (spelling mistake before unintentional), I do think you are a good person because you come up with these ideas for discussion. These are just facets of points of view of the larger diamond. The more ideas, however different, can teach others/ benefit others and generally expand on the way one thinks, don't you think?
OP
OP
Tokis-Phoenix
^_^
I agree, thanks for clearing that up
dwarfgourami
Fish Connoisseur
Tokis, nobody is having a go at you for being a bad person- of course we agree with the need for the parents to be ultimately responsible.
But that thing about the pet not being the child's because the parents are taking the main responsibility for looking after it- it just doesn't ring with most people's experience of childrearing. Children wouldn't be able to call a thing their own in that case (including their boyfriends when they get into their teens) because a responsible parent will always be doing a certain amount of tactful hovering. The emphasis is on tactful. Developing responsibility is a gradual process and the wise parent knows that it won't happen if you are constantly telling the child that nothing is theirs "really", because they're too little or because I wrote the cheque or whatever.
Children need to feel the sense of responsibility that comes with ownership and it's too late to wait until they can actually pay their own way. It is precisely because my son believes that he is making a big difference to his catfish that he will grow up into the sort of person who does make a big difference. (And to me, it doesn't come as a big shock that I have to spend time looking after his fish- who do you suppose looks after his clothes and his toys and his teddy? But I would still maintain that it is his football shirt and not mine).
Perhaps this is getting into the sort of discussion that should go in a parenting forum rather than here - I don't really believe that we differ on the subject of fishkeeping. Quite to the contrary, ever since I joined this site I have admired your stance on every post of yours I've read! I certainly agree with your remarks about the web site in question- some of that advice was very unsuitable indeed. But if parents fall for that goldfish-bowl-no-maintenance thing and buy it without doing research, then I would say that the responsibility problem lies with the adults- probably because they weren't taught properly when they were little! Let's hope we do a better job with the next generation! Bur we need to catch them young!
But that thing about the pet not being the child's because the parents are taking the main responsibility for looking after it- it just doesn't ring with most people's experience of childrearing. Children wouldn't be able to call a thing their own in that case (including their boyfriends when they get into their teens) because a responsible parent will always be doing a certain amount of tactful hovering. The emphasis is on tactful. Developing responsibility is a gradual process and the wise parent knows that it won't happen if you are constantly telling the child that nothing is theirs "really", because they're too little or because I wrote the cheque or whatever.
Children need to feel the sense of responsibility that comes with ownership and it's too late to wait until they can actually pay their own way. It is precisely because my son believes that he is making a big difference to his catfish that he will grow up into the sort of person who does make a big difference. (And to me, it doesn't come as a big shock that I have to spend time looking after his fish- who do you suppose looks after his clothes and his toys and his teddy? But I would still maintain that it is his football shirt and not mine).
Perhaps this is getting into the sort of discussion that should go in a parenting forum rather than here - I don't really believe that we differ on the subject of fishkeeping. Quite to the contrary, ever since I joined this site I have admired your stance on every post of yours I've read! I certainly agree with your remarks about the web site in question- some of that advice was very unsuitable indeed. But if parents fall for that goldfish-bowl-no-maintenance thing and buy it without doing research, then I would say that the responsibility problem lies with the adults- probably because they weren't taught properly when they were little! Let's hope we do a better job with the next generation! Bur we need to catch them young!
I have to say that, though I agree kids should have responsibilities from a young age and learn with the help of their parents about animals, interacting with them etc... I do think fish are not the best first pet and that realy young children find animals you can touch and play with a lot more entertaining and interesting. Also, fish, contrary to popular belief ARE a long-term commitment. Most aquarium fish do live for a pretty long time. The most common 'children's fish' is the goldfish - they live to be 30 - what happens if the child goes off to university or whatever! When a child is 3 or 4, they aren't thinking about the long-term wellfare of their pet - they just want it then and there - what happens when they start getting older and lose interest? I think it is essential that parents udnerstand they are the ones who hold the real resposibility and realy, I would rather see children with hamsters or rabbits as pets instead of fish. Still, I'm not saying that I disagree with kids keeping fish provided their parents are involved and responsibly help and care for the fish and I recognise the educational value etc. What I dislike is when a parent buys their begging 4 year old a goldfish and bowl thinking, 'It'll only last a couple of weeks anyway." Or thinking of it as being a replaceable 'toy' or first-time pet. That's just plain irresponsible and isn't doing the child any good either - just teaching him/her to also be irresponsible and uncaring. Also, I have to say that I feel that site tokis posted is not a good thing to have around. If a parent is going to get their children fish, they should be doing the appropriate research and should be able, using that research, to find the correct equipment and fish for their child. Suggesting a small, plastic bowl isn't going to help any fish. That site would simply encourage parents who don't realy care about the wellfare of the fish and don't want to take the time to realy research to go out and buy their children the bowl and fish etc without any real background knowledge and with very little, if any, plan to take over the tank if the child loses interest. Just my opinion.
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