Still At Wits End! The Ammonia Is Neverending!

[petal040]

I have been having problems with large amounts of ammonia in my tank. For details - please see my previous thread here...

[URL="http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showto...97936&st=20"]http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showto...97936&st=20[/URL]

To cut a long story short, despite doing 50% water changes (with gravel vaccing) every two days my ammonia is always back up to between 0.5 and 1ppm the day after a change. I have tried everything.

I am not overstocked, I have not changed anything recently, there is no ammonia in my tapwater, I have no other pets that could have peed in the tank, I don't overfeed, there is nothing rotting in there. The tank was previously cycled and has been running for months.

I have 0 nitrite and very low nitrate (due to frequent water changes).

After trying everything, I started using Seachem Prime, as I could not keep up with enough water changes to keep the ammonia at a safe enough level (I am heavily pregnant, partner working long hours).

My ammonia readings have not changed. Am I correct in thinking that the ammonia is safe now, even though it reads high, because they Seachem has detoxified it?

If this is the case, can I safely reduce the water changes? We can't keep them up at this frequency.

Any help much appreciated.

 

[craig855s]

could there be something in the tank/filter stopping the bacteria that deal with ammonia from surviving?

 

[petal040]

Not that I am aware of, but I guess it's a possibility?

Does anyone know the answer to my questions about Seachem?

 

[petal040]

Can I bump this? We're desperate!

 

[Faythee]

Seachem Prime is a good product to use. It WILL still show up when you test the water. It converts the ammonia to a less toxic type.

I didn't read your previous topic, but:

Have you tested your tap water for ammonia content ?

There are ammonia removing medias you can add to your filter as well.

 

[petal040]

Thanks for your reply - I have tested the tapwater it is 0 ammonia.

If I put Seachem in when ammonia reads 0.5, then the next day it reads 1, does this mean that half of the ammonia in the tank is poisonous (as it is a new 0.5 created after the Seachem went in?)

Also - what is the filter media that removes ammonia? Would it go in a standard Fluval filter?

 

[Faythee]

Hmmmm.....That is odd. I usually use a double dose of Prime. Do you also get nitrite readings the next day ?

I am not familiar with the Fluvals. I have hob filters and I can put a bag of ammonia remover in it if needed.

 

[Yanks15]

Aqua Clear makes an ammonia remover insert. You may be able to put one in your filter. I have not used it but got one just in case.

 

[wolfwolf]

Check the Seachem website. I believe it tells you that Prime will mess up your ammonia test unless it is a specific kind of test. If the tank is stuck at 0 nitrite it only makes sense the the ammonia is a false reading.

your link doesn't work for me so I will assume that you are using liquid based tests and you don't have 150 fish in a 5 gallon tank.

Another thought... any chance that your pH crashed?

 

[petal040]

Sorry not sure why the above link was wrong - I think this one should be right:

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=297936&hl=

Yes I am using the liquid tests and am not overstocked... as for false readings - I don't think this is the case - tapwater reads 0 ammonia.

We did have a pH test a couple of months ago (the problem with the ammonia has been ever since then) where ammonia read at 8 and a fish died.

Started using Seachem Prime a few weeks ago. We carried on with the frequent water changes also.

However this week we reduced the water changes (we just can't keep them up at the moment) and left the tank for six days. After the six days, readings were ammonia 2, nitrite 0, nitrate 0.

Looks like I have no bacteria working in the tank now? The filter flow is fine, it has the correct media that has not been changed.

I just don't get it.

Our Ph was down at 6. We removed bogwood and with frequent water changes it went back to 7. Not sure what caused the crash. No info about local water board doing anything strange.

 

[OldMan47]

The pH at 6.0 will slow or stop the ammonia processing bacteria. The good news about that low pH is that it makes the ammonia much less toxic so you can allow more in the water without causing the fish much trouble. I know that you have already tried testing the tap water for ammonia but try testing it shortly after treating it with dechlorinator. If you have chloramine in your water supply like I do, the ammonia will show up as soon as the dechlorinator breaks the chemical bonds that chlorine has with ammonia in water treated with chloramine. When I do that, my tap water reads 1.0 ppm of ammonia although it is reading zero right from the tap. Isn't chemistry fun?
By moving from a location with good hard water to a location with no KH, you have really changed the setting for your tank and its biota. I hate to suggest this but chemicals are made for people who use RO water to restore the mineral content of their water to what the fish need. It might be worthwhile to use something like that if your water is ultra-low in mineral content so that it will become more stable. The reason I hate to recommend it is that you are then committed to using that kind of product with every water change forever.
Prime can be used as an emergency treatment for an ammonia problem but its effect is only temporary and the real answer is still to do water changes. If you must use it, a zeolite ammonia remover will work but is an even worse commitment than the RO Right would be. It will mean daily testing for ammonia and being ready to replace the media as soon as you see even a hint of ammonia in the tank. The biggest problem with using ammonia removers is that they work great right up until the moment that they are exhausted chemically. At that moment, they do not gradually slow down, they stop working completely in what will seem like minutes but is probably several hours. If you don't change ammonia remover media immediately, the next day you will have terrible ammonia problems. For the short time it will take to be able to resume your water change routine, this may be an option, but as a long term strategy you need to try to recover the ammonia processing bacteria. When you stop using the ammonia removing media, you will be on day 1 of a fish-in cycle so be sure that you are ready to deal with the water changes before you stop. At one time, in the 60s and early 70s, many people used this method of controlling ammonia but it fell out of favor because the cycled filter is so much less work to maintain under normal circumstances. In your situation with your current stage of pregnancy, it may be time to resurrect the method as long as you are aware of the risks involved and the testing it makes necessary.

 

[petal040]

Thankyou for your reply.

I have tested the tapwater after conditioner was added and it still read as having 0 ammonia.

For now we will try and remove/detoxify the ammonia at the same time doing weekly 50% water changes - does that sound okay? I am worried about the fish suffering (they all seem fine at the moment)

Once we are able to up the changes again - how can I start the tank cycling?

pH has been at 7 for around a month - no nitrites or nitrates, just ammonia - it looks like cycle was not going to start?

Should I remove all filter media and start again with new sponges etc? Presumably whatever is on the filter media now is dead/not working (it is a brown colour - in my previous tank the filter media was a rich green colour - not sure if this means anything).

Not sure if this is relevant - but there is no algae in the tank at all (there used to be). Could be that the algae eater has eaten it all, but I am not sure?

Thanks again.

P.S. Ideally I would like to be able to buy a big massive tank and start that up with a fishless cycle and move the fish into there, but can't afford it just now
If we did do this though, is it likely we would have the same problem? (i.e. no bacteria?)

 

[OldMan47]

If you have the right bacteria growing in your filter, the media usually takes on a pale brown color. The ammonia really needs to be controlled at or below 0.25 ppm to avoid damage to the fish. The methods vary quite a bit but the control is really necessary. The 2.0 ammonia reading is toxic regardless of the tank water pH although it is better than 2.0 with a high pH. Waiting a week while the ammonia concentration climbs to that kind of level will seriously shorten the life of your fish if not kill them outright. If you just can't do the water change, another method to control ammonia must be used, it is not optional unless you a ready to give up keeping fish completely. Some of the methods that are known to work but entail their own risks are maintaining a high number of fast growing plants or using chemical removal methods such as zeolites. Both of these methods have serious shortcomings. The zeolites I already explained earlier. The plants are only useful if you are good at getting rapid growth from the plants and you have enough plants to remove all of the ammonia. There are fast growing plants that will give you a chance at success but a dying plant will make the ammonia problem worse, not better. Don't kid yourself if you are not sure of getting plants to thrive, don't try it. In the US there is a granular product called ammo-chips that will literally remove ammonia from water that would, as I said earlier, work if you are diligent about testing and always have some on hand so that when it stops working, typically on a Sunday evening, your fish don't need to suffer because of it.

 

[petal040]

Ah... I am confused again...

I was adding the Seachem Prime to remove/detoxify the ammonia between water changes.

I thought this meant that the 2ppm reading was mostly detoxified or 'safe' ammonia or ammonium.

Does Seachem detoxify the ammonia? It says that it does on the bottle - I got it after being advised to on the forum, and I think the poster (it may have been a different poster) did say that I would still get readings but these would be 'false' as it was not the same as a 'genuine' reading of toxic ammonia.

I am not sure what the zeolite ammonia remover is - fish shop didn't know what I mean (it is only a small shop) and I couldn't make sense of the results of a google search either. Is Seachem Prime a zeolite?

Sorry if I sound stupid - I feel like I am going round in constant circles with this.

If the tank had just cycled, it would have been okay, but there has been no sign of that whatsoever, and I don't know why.

*edited to say I am in the UK - I think I can get ammo chips here but I'm not sure how I could get them into the filter. Also - I thought the tank could still cycle with the detoxified ammonia - any ideas why it isn't?

 

[OldMan47]

Prime is a dechlorinator that has the side benefit of detoxifying the ammonia that it produces by breaking the chloramine bonds and turning chloramine into chlorine and ammonia. There is a limit to what Prime can do. It can reduce the toxicity of small amounts of ammonia but it does not remove ammonia and it has a limited capacity to detox ammonia. The only real solution to ammonia is to remove it somehow. The main method that we use is to develop a bacterial colony that converts the ammonia to nitrites and ultimately to nitrates. If the bacteria are not yet developed, like in a new tank, we remove ammonia with water changes. Zeolite is seldom sold under that name. Instead it gets names like ammo-carb, when it is combined with carbon or ammo-chips, when it is sold purely to remove ammonia in the US. Elsewhere, I have no idea what the material may be called. If you ask the LFS for a filter material that can remove lots of ammonia, they will have something on the shelf that does exactly that. Its dangers are as previously posted, but that kind of thing does work if you are willing to monitor your tank closely enough to get away with using it.