Some People Just Dont Listen

[shelaghfishface]

more to the point that they dont appear to be

 

[Truck]

when a fish's growth is slowed, because of in correct housing, the body stops growing, and so do the organs. they dont get crushed up inside, its a myth...have you ever seen a fish with swollen insides because the organs are too big for the fish?

there is no science to explain that the organs carry on growing.

so you are saying that its ok to stunt fish, if they are not effected?

no its not okay, but the organs squishing up in the body theory is a myth. ill quote an explanation from a recent post

 

[Truck]

let's actually pull some info from a few actual scientific sources:

from "Development and aging of the liver and pancreas in the domestic carp, Cyprinus carpio: From embryogenesis to 15-year-old fish" by Fishelson L and Becker K in ENVIRONMENTAL BIOLOGY OF FISHES Vol 61 Issume (1) pages 85-97, 2001,

"In 15-year-old experimentally stunted fish (110-120 mm TL) the liver and pancreas resemble those of juvenile fish appearing much healthier than those of 8-10 year old large carp from commercial ponds. "

Sure, those are only a few organs and a general assumption about all the organs cannot be completely made completlely accurately, but the liver is a fairly sensiitve organ since it does a lot of the housekeeping of the fish's immune system.

Here is another from "Effect of stunting of juvenile bighead carp Aristichthys nobilis (Richardson) on compensatory growth and reproduction" by Santiago CB, Gonzal AC, Aralar EV, Arcilla RP in AQUACULTURE RESEARCH Vol 35 Issue (9) pages 836-841, JUL 23 2004:

"The carp stunted for 6, 12 and 18 months showed growth compensation, although their weights and lengths were slightly lower than those of the control fish. The body weight and length of fish stunted for 24 months were the lowest throughout the rearing period. Sexual maturation occurred only in the control fish and those stunted for 6 and 12 months. However, the onset of gonad maturity was delayed significantly (P<0.05) in males stunted for 12 months and in both groups of stunted female fish. "

Stunting delayed the development of the fish, but no mention of bulging organs or other deformities.
I believe that some of this comes from the knowledge that teleosts (bony fishes) are considered to have indeterminate growth, that is, they continue to grow over their entire lifespan. However, as some point in their lives, they devote some, and usually most of their resource intake into reproduction -- generating eggs and maturing their sexual organs. In almost every case, this results in a sigmoidal growth curve: slow at first as fry can only take in a certain amount of food, then rapid in their first year(s) as growth is dominant, then almost all resources get devoted to reproduction related activities.

Ultimately, why would nature allow the growth rates of the skeleton and the organs to be different?!?

Finally, every time I've seen one of these posts, I always ask: does anyone actually have a fish with bulging organs from stunting? I've never, ever seen a good example, and I've asked many, many times before. All I've ever seen is rumor, and "friend-of-a-friend" stories, and hearsay. Never anything actually factually presented. So, does anyone actually have a fish with bulging organs caused by stunting (and only stunting). You're probably going to have to perform a necropsy, and do it with the aid of a trained ichthyologist who will be able to identify whether an organ is larger than normal or not. I know it is a lot, but unless we have this kind of info, just the word of someone is insufficient.

as stated, "why would nature allow growth rates of the organs and skeleton to be different?"

 

[BenPursglove]

in my lfs today i say a woman with 2 kids buyin a fish bowl about 3g with no fillter or evan air pump and i heard them say what they wanted to get 1 shbubkin 1 shara comet and a yellow and red goldfish so i thought i would say to her theres no fillter on the tank and the tanks not evan sutible for one of them fish let alone 4 they all need huge tanks or ponds with really good fillters and she said they only grow to the size of the tank and i said thats a load of rubbish it stunts them and kills them and she said oh well they look nice and just went ahead a brought all 4 of them some people just shouldnt be alowed to keep fish

Did you run out of breath with no punctuation or did it all happen so quick that no-one took a breath? No matter, no full stop pragraph is really hard to read, lolz.

Anyway, the answer is yes some people don't listen (they are all around us in everyday life ). Despite your best efforts the mum(?) was probably pampering to the kids wants and really doesn't give a scud about the fish' health even if the hand of God pointed at her in the LFS and said "OI, WOMAN, NO".

Said woman probably doesnt know even the address for google to search for good advice if she even thought she needed it (which she thinks she doesnt). Said people will never take advice on anything and except for some traggic accident that stops them keeping fish (we live in hope), they will probably kill the first 4 quickish, maybe buy one more fish <dies> then sell their kit on ebay as they are FAIL, hopefully never to return un-informed to the hobby again. This is the best you can hope for unless they educate themselves during first 4 croaking event...

There are millions of these fools around, all they need is a shop and a C/card and they'll buy it. Personally I love to challenge these fools too (hard ) if I bump into them it makes for an exciting and interesting LFS visit <bonus> My favourite LFS visit is when bumping into numerous amount of fools, giving them the word, then going about my business. I'm real fun like that.

 

[shelaghfishface]

hmm interesting read, but surely stunting cant be comfortable... not an english class, he got his point across

 

[BenPursglove]

I am going to make a document that anyone can print out to give to these loons if you see them in the LFS doing crazy stuff. Print one or more and keep for handing out rather than confronting. Link incoming...

 

[Truck]

hmm interesting read, but surely stunting cant be comfortable

no its not fair in the fish, as stunting has been said to stop fish reaching sexual maturity and only when there growth can resume, this maturity can take place, its all a very murky subject, but whats there, shows that the fish's organs stay in proportion to the size of its skeleton.

 

[shelaghfishface]

im sure ive seen several on the forum, loons??

 

[BenPursglove]

im sure ive seen several on the forum, loons??

Aye loons, loons is plural of loon derived from a colloquialism of lunatic - a crazy person. Typical usage: "Them chavs over there are pure loons, should we call the pigs?"

 

[shelaghfishface]

i know what it means, i just wondered who you were referring to

 

[BenPursglove]

Loony means a crazy person no brain, no knowledge, "oooo cooeee that looks pretty" fish buyers in the LFS

Edit: Some people could be offended by the term "loon" (as it may be their surname) sorry if I offended in it's usage, it's the best word I had at the time. It is unfortunate that your name has, over time, been associated with crazy people, GET USED TO IT, Loon is now common speak for a nutter (Nutter however as surname also requires another post of apologies GET USED TO THIS ALSO Nutters ) OMG how do I dig so deep in with these edits I have not even said belmers yet...

 

[MermaidMel]

I don't see any good reason why fish are not treated with the same surveillance as furry pets, under the RSPCA or similar. What harm would it do for officers to do secret visits, like a hotel inspector or secret shopper type thing, on spot checks to LFS everywhere and for all LFS to be aware it could happen to them at any time, if they don't give the right advice, they are on a warning. Do that 3 times, they are shut down or banned from selling a certain type of fish. Hell they could even have people like us doing it, it's not hard to grass up a shop to a governing body and I bet you that system would work very well indeed

 

[blix]

It's a sad reality. People often won't listen because they think "Hey its just a fish."

Well let me tell you something----it may "just be a fish" but it still is a living organism. I cannot stand when people who do not know better take that kind of attitude towards fish---as being just a decoration.

What's even worse is that a large amount of pet stores that deal with fish have staff that are completely uninformed. Petsmart comes to mind. The one around here I won't even buy fish from. I ask places that deal with fish questions that I already know the answers to----simple questions mind you that anyone selling fish SHOULD know---and if they cannot answer correctly I blacklist them. I once asked the petsmart people here if giant danios and mollies would crossbreed if I put them together and they said yes. WalMart should never be permitted to sell fish. I could name a few others here as well.

Unfortunately a lot of fish places are in it for the money alone and could really care less about the health of the stock they are providing. I am very much against what I call "mass filtration" where the water is filtered among all the tanks and is basically a mass shared water source. All it takes is one individual tank to have an outbreak and the entire system is compromised. A lot of places do this nowadays.

Best fish store I ever went to closed down almost a decade ago. Every tank was individually filtered, I never got a sick fish from that place and anytime ANYTHING went wrong in a tank it was immediately quarantined and treated properly. I bought fish there for years and never lost a fish due to ill health at the store. He had his stuff together. I was most upset at his store closing.

Best places to go are local fish stores that specialize primarily in fish and perhaps even exclusively. Most of the places that sell fish as a "side business" are usually uninformed and do not really care about their fish stock's overall health. And they still sell fish because there are a lot of people out there who don't know much about fish also and think they are getting a healthy fish only to find it lay dying in their tank very quickly.

So sad.....

 

[kevinthecow]

hate when that happens.
i'm still young, but I love how my lfs has a separate spot where they sell adult goldfishes.
then i point those sellers there to prove that it grows huge.

 

[JustKia]

Regardless of right or wrong if someone came up to me in a shop and said "hey you don't have xyz that you need for that, and those fish can't go in that tank and etc etc etc" I'd probably be thinking along the lines of "why don't you just **** off, it's none of your business".
I think the vast majority of Joe Public are more likely to trust an employee of an LFS than some random customer - unless of course you get into a conversation first and start discussing things.