Some of my Angels P, F1, and just starting F2 Generations

[GaryE]

There have to be better sources than a 1979 TFH book. We've learned so much since then.

I only keep wilds, and had to give away my angels before my move, so I haven't cared enough about linebreeding and fancy form genetics to even take a look. The last time I tried linebreeding I was 13. But I'm sure a search, even for an online pdf, would give you more.

 

[Uberhoust]

For my records the P generation is the generation I started with. I don't know if they are heterozygous or homozygous but given the information I have so far it is looking like they are both heterozygous. I have no way of getting the history for these parents, as well if they were wild stock I don't know if they would necessarily be homozygous. So I think P is ok at this time.

I prefer the wild type which I thought was also consider the silvers ie all locus groups at x/x..

 

[itiwhetu]

There have to be better sources than a 1979 TFH book. We've learned so much since then.

I only keep wilds, and had to give away my angels before my move, so I haven't cared enough about linebreeding and fancy form genetics to even take a look. The last time I tried linebreeding I was 13. But I'm sure a search, even for an online pdf, would give you more.

Genetics are genetics we have known about this stuff for years, the fundamentals haven't changed. What I learnt at university is still basically what is being taught today. 1 +1 = 2. and it will always be 2.

 

[itiwhetu]

If you look at the F1 generation and the characteristics of all the fry then you can start to make some assumptions about the genetical makeup of the Parents. If you count the number each type of fry that is present.

 

[anewbie]

Right now the genetics are mostly just something interesting but I have noticed that I now have much better Angels overall since most I have breed myself, primarily because I sent the ones I don't like to the LFS. Once you get into the routine its not that much extra work, unfortunately though it means I now have to establish another larger tank to grow the current batch out.

The angels I raised from frys (parents were black of some sort and platinum) were huge - at 1 year at least 1.5 inch larger than their dad who was pretty large. females were 'bout same size as their mother. Btw F1/F2 are usually used in reference from wild. However i suspect your parents are actually tank bred so the destination is a bit misleading.

 

[ghyti]

You have to look at the offspring to tell the genetics of the parents. Your Ben does not look like he has either a Stripeless gene or a Zebra gene. Zebra is a dominant gene so there would definitely be Zebra babies if he had that gene. But he obviously has at least one B;ue gene (+/pb) because of the Blue offspring. At each locus an offspring gets one gene from the father and one gene from the mother. Blue is a recessive gene so in order to express Blue he has to be pb/pb. That means he had to get one pb from the father. If you have albinos in the F2 generation it could mean that either of the the grandparents could carry the albino gene. Only way to tell which one would be to breed then with different partners.

 

[Rocky998]

Beautiful fish! Cant wait to see the fry when they are all grown up!

 

[Uberhoust]

our Ben does not look like he has either a Stripeless gene or a Zebra gene

Thanks for the feedback I was wondering about the stripeless gene because I thought it was only a partial recessive and some of the stripes on Ben are not full length. The actual genetics proportions and punnett squares are simple to follow, my biggest issue is that I have never raised Angels till a few years ago, so how the genes express themselves is where I have biggest issues. Observations like the one above really help. One area of question is how much of the tan/golden tone on the silvers is normal as opposed to having a gold gene? Ben seems to have a deep orangey cast to him, especially on his dorsal surface, but I don't think it is an expression of one of the gold genes. I would really like a zebra, hoping somehow it was being expressed, instead I found the albinos.

The F2 generation is developing well I still have about 100 fry, but I lost two more albinos today and another albino is not doing well. Ammonia has been a bit of an issue initially, up to 0.5 ppm once, but I have been changing 80% of the water daily. I tested the water today, changed yesterday, and Ammonia and Nitrites are both zero so no water change today, additionally all the other F2s are acting very robust. The majority of the fry are starting to get some colors and I would say that most appear to be Striped or Smokes. I also don't see any evidence of blue yet so even though Junior had pb/pb it might be possible that Benita was missing the pb gene all together. I am going to watch them a bit longer because if I remember correctly the blue didn't show up right away.

Food consumption has gone way up. I am making two batches of naulpli a day using approximately 3/8th of a teaspoon of eggs a day. They will clean up a feeding in less then two minutes then they pick on the filter for a long time. I think I will have to move these guys to the 60g soon.

Long day at work today so no new pictures. Thanks all.

 

[itiwhetu]

Be careful not to feed too much brine shrimp. Also, the Albinos will be double recessive therefore weaker by nature.

 

[ghyti]

Albinos have weak eyes and can not find food very easy. You might do some research but if I remember right, turning down the light helps a little. You might need to separate them and treat them different than the rest. The gold gene is probably not the cause of your fishes color but it could be a combination of some other genes. Only way to be sure is to do an extensive breeding program. A single gold gene will not express at all (as with all recessive genes) that is why it is sometimes referred to as a hidden gold gene. Dominate or co-dominate genes express in single dose. Recessive genes require a double dose to express. Then there are the epistatic genes like two gold will suppress the expression of Zebra and two bg will suppress the expression of Black on the body.

 

[Uberhoust]

I have been quiet for the last little bit. Lots of new work at the company I work with, have enough time to clean and do an 80% water change along with feeding but not much else.

This is the first time I have successfully raised the little ones in any numbers away from the parents. Had a bout of mortalities over the last three days. Was losing about three fish per day, funny enough the ones I was losing were the bigger more robust looking ones (none of the albinos died). Today I only lost one. I tested the water for Ammonia and Nitrite at the peak of the issue and both came in at 0, on a whim I thought I would test the pH. The pH topped out the normal range API test so I tested with the high range and discovered the pH was 7.6, this is way higher than the water in any of my other tanks. Tested the source water and it is now coming out of the tap at 7.2 rather than previously at 6.8, this is not a real big change and doesn't explain why the water in the tank was 7.6 (this with daily water changes). I had two clay pots in the tank with some plants in them, since removing them the pH is starting to drop, 7.4 today. I expect they had something on them that was driving the pH higher. (The test kit has gone from used once every two months to used daily)

I am now debating with myself if I should add something to the tank to slowly reduce the pH. Right now I am decided against doing anything because the pH is slowly dropping since removing the pots. I am also making sure I rinse the naupli well because the salt solution I used to hatch them has baking soda in it which might also be raising the pH by the small amounts added during the feedings.

Still have an uncountable number of fry which are growing and getting color. They keep my home time busy.

 

[Colin_T]

Ben and Junior appear to have some Pterophyllum altum in them. They are P. scalare but the big thick black band on the body is from P. altum. Somewhere back in his past his ancestors were crossed with another species.

 

[Uberhoust]

Ben and Junior appear to have some Pterophyllum altum

Fun you mention that. Ben in particular has developed those features even more lately though he is about 3 years old or so. They seem to constantly change. On the other hand he is a robust fish, pretty wide for a Altum I would think. I think he still falls into the P. scalare range. I did not know that the angle species could hybridize, though a quick look suggested that a lot of the domestic my be hybridized with P. leopoldi. and I did find a reference to a breeding between P. scalare and P. altum though this crossing doesn't seem too common.

The F2 generation is not doing very well. If it was still possible, and it is not, I would not raise any young from this combination of parents again. The quality of the offspring are particularly bad. There are many cases where the pelvic fins are not developing correctly this is the most common, and I still get the occasional random death of what looks to be a healthy fish, even though the water parameters have stabilized and are sitting at 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite and less than 10 ppm nitrate. I am not doing as many water changes as this might have contributed to the earlier deaths.

Not one of the albinos has decent finnage, I might keep one or two but they too will not be used for any breeding. In general I am not a fan of albino fish though I would like to see what they look like when then get older.

I have euthanized a number of the fish with severe structural and developmental issues, and overall the survival rate on this batch has been much lower than on my previous batches. One difference with this batch is I raised them without the parents, right now it seems that raising them with the parents is better than without, but I also have to remember that overall the structure of the fish from the first batches were much more uniform in shape with no obvious structural issues.

 

[itiwhetu]

Just because your albinos don't have good fins doesn't mean that a percentage of their offspring won't have perfect fins, and therefore you can produce a line of Albinos if you want to.

 

[Uberhoust]

Just because your albinos don't have good fins doesn't mean that a percentage of their offspring won't have perfect fins

You might have a point, but honestly I don't want to raise albinos I kind of view them like balloon fish, overbreed bettas, and brachycephalic dogs. I find them interesting but I don't want to be the person that raises them. From my point of view the albino trait likely came with only one of the PI parents and breeding the F1s just put the same gene together to allow the expression of the albino trait. Along for the ride in this case was a whole lot of other bad traits. When I say they don't have good fins some fish simply did not have pelvic fins, some did not have pectoral fins (they did not survive). 100% of the albino fry either had very poor fins, or were missing one or more fins. The percentage of bad fin fish in the non albino group appears to be approximately 8% percent. In the F1 generations of which I raised four batches I had very little poor fin development, which only occurred in the ones showing the blue traits, and the poor fin development was only bad shaping, but they all still had functional fins.

I am going to try another pairing of the F2s, Junior, because he is a very strong robust fish, and Goldilocks, primarily because they have since paired off again. If this batch is as bad as the batch I have now I might try Stripe with Goldilocks because Stripe, to my knowledge is not related to the current F1's as far as I know.

Its a bit of a crap shoot because I don't know the history of the parents.