Sociality In Fish

[Truck]

any real scientifc research will not be bias as a good scientist repeats tests, fish show no expression physically as to how they feel besides movement.

and an orangutan is easier to test as you can talk to them and they may understand you etc. where as you dont know wether a fish can understand you.

how much scientific research have you read i.e. from a peer reviewed journal. Most scientific research identifies pitfalls in research.

How do fish communicate? They must communicate is some way be it olfactory, gustatory or through visual stimuli (not much i know about)

CARLSTEAD, K., 1996. Effects of captivity on the behaviour of wild mammals. In: KLIEMAN, D., ALLEN, M., THOMPSON, K. and LUMPKIN, S., eds., Wild mammals in captivity: Principles and techniques. London: University of Chicago Press. 1996. pp 317-333.

MORGAN, K. and TROMBORG, C., 2007. Sources of stress in captivity. Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 102 (3-4), 262-302.

RABIN, L, 2003. Maintaining behavioural diversity in captivity for conservation: natural behavioural management. Animal Welfare, 12, 85-94.

VEASEY, J., WARAN, N. and YOUNG, R., 1996. On comparing the behaviour of zoo housed animals with wild conspecifics as a welfare indicator, using the giraffe (Giraffa camelopardalis) as a model. Animal Welfare, 5(6), 139-153.

wheres the info? fish generally recognize each other by site, body shape. fish can work together in a way, using the lateral line which detects change in pressure and shoaling fish detect pressure changes with the lateral line and maintain their shoal in this way.

i believe that keeping shoaling fish in groups of under 6 is wrong, firstly because we have no proof of whether a fish is happy or not, because, they show no expression and we cannot communicate with them so will not know if they will be happy or not, but its always best to be on the safe side

 

[hollanda88]

wheres what info?

you can use physiologial changes to detect wherther or not a fish is 'happy' as you can in all animals


If fish use visual cues to detect the state of other fish then humans can use these same visual cues to detect if fish are stressed. Visual cues have been used in penguins (rockhopper i think maybe humboldt) to detect individuals through slight differances in colouration using computors which can recognise about 5 per second, i can't remember the referance for that study sorry.

 

[Truck]

wheres what info?

you can use physiologial changes to detect wherther or not a fish is 'happy' as you can in all animals


If fish use visual cues to detect the state of other fish then humans can use these same visual cues to detect if fish are stressed. Visual cues have been used in penguins (rockhopper i think maybe humboldt) to detect individuals through slight differances in colouration using computors which can recognise about 5 per second, i can't remember the referance for that study sorry.

i didnt say visual clues, thats how fish recognize each other, the way they can communicate in such a way, is using the lateral line to detect pressure changes, this is not a visual change.

CARLSTEAD, K., 1996. Effects of captivity on the behaviour of wild mammals. In: KLIEMAN, D., ALLEN, M., THOMPSON, K. and LUMPKIN, S., eds., Wild mammals in captivity: Principles and techniques. London: University of Chicago Press. 1996. pp 317-333.

MORGAN, K. and TROMBORG, C., 2007. Sources of stress in captivity. Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 102 (3-4), 262-302.

RABIN, L, 2003. Maintaining behavioural diversity in captivity for conservation: natural behavioural management. Animal Welfare, 12, 85-94.

VEASEY, J., WARAN, N. and YOUNG, R., 1996. On comparing the behaviour of zoo housed animals with wild conspecifics as a welfare indicator, using the giraffe (Giraffa camelopardalis) as a model. Animal Welfare, 5(6), 139-153.

that means nothing to me lol tells me nothing, and if its from wikipedia the chances are its in accurate, as it is written by people like you and me

 

[Inchworm]

I don't know if there are any scientific reports about this, but anyone who ever had a lone cory in a tank, and added another one to it, will know what a happy fish looks like.

 

[OohFeeshy]

It's not nessecarily a situation to do on purpose, but I've had several schooling species alone for various reasons and honestly? The behavior exhibited seemed almost opposite to what truckasauras is claiming is fact. For example, in instances where all but one of a school has died, the individual in question seemed a lot bolder, less intimidated by movement around the tank and highly independent, behaving in much the same way as a fish you would normally keep singly. It would seem to me that fish kept in a school are more likely to be skittish due to various 'pack behaviors'- the fish tend to copy each other, and if even one is not habituated to whatever the stimulus may be, they're all going to be affected by it.

There is a slight point to note in that this probably won't apply (at least initially) if, for instance, you take one fish out of a large group in a shop and introduce into another tank where it's on it's own, for fairly obvious reasons. However, after a period of adaptation it's likely to return to 'normal'.

Edit- It will also depend to some degree on the species. My experiences have been primarily with fish like tetras, cories probably would not be terribly happy, but they weren't really the species under consideration.

that means nothing to me lol tells me nothing, and if its from wikipedia the chances are its in accurate, as it is written by people like you and me

It's called scientific evidence, which I believe you wanted? Wikipedia may be written by members of the public, but certainly members of the public who know what they're talking about, and it's also moderated by said people who know their stuff.

 

[hollanda88]

LMAO, no its not from wiki. there all papaers i have read and reviewed and like. do you know about places like science direct or even google scholar?

RABIN, L, 2003. Maintaining behavioural diversity in captivity for conservation: natural behavioural management. Animal Welfare, 12, 85-94.

That is the harvard style of referencing

RABIN, L. is the author. 2003 is the publish year. Maintaining behavioural diversity in captivity for conservation: natural behavioural management is the title. animal welfare is the journal title (and animal welfare IMO is a kick ass journal) and the rest is the volume and pages.

All the refs i gave were from decent, respected, peer reviewed journals. And written by authors of which i idolise i.e. shepardson, young, plowman and rabin

if you search for hosey on scholar you will get loads of these sorts of papers as he supports a lot of research in this area

andrew

 

[hollanda88]

It's called scientific evidence, which I believe you wanted? Wikipedia may be written by members of the public, but certainly members of the public who know what they're talking about, and it's also moderated by said people who know their stuff.

I actually don't really like wikipedia although i do use it to find out basic principles such as things that you can't get wrong and things about people. The thing i have against it is that the mods don't know much and therfore a lot of crap gets through lol.

 

[Truck]

LMAO, no its not from wiki. there all papaers i have read and reviewed and like. do you know about places like science direct or even google scholar?

RABIN, L, 2003. Maintaining behavioural diversity in captivity for conservation: natural behavioural management. Animal Welfare, 12, 85-94.

That is the harvard style of referencing

RABIN, L. is the author. 2003 is the publish year. Maintaining behavioural diversity in captivity for conservation: natural behavioural management is the title. animal welfare is the journal title (and animal welfare IMO is a kick ass journal) and the rest is the volume and pages.

All the refs i gave were from decent, respected, peer reviewed journals. And written by authors of which i idolise i.e. shepardson, young, plowman and rabin

if you search for hosey on scholar you will get loads of these sorts of papers as he supports a lot of research in this area

andrew

shall take a nosey

 

[hollanda88]

shall take a nosey

if you can't get acces tell me and i will give you the important stuff lol

you have to pay loads to get access to journals, the best way is to get an athens password ass part of a university

andrew

 

[matchstickman47]

because fish keeping is about replicating a fishes natural habitat, not using them as some form of experiment that may stress or harm them, and the only proper way of telling if a fish is stressed is skittishness and hiding thats it

this is possibly the biggest load of crap ever....
im sorry but if this is the case why do people put rainbow coloured gravel and why do people buy stupdi things like fake fish that blow out bubbles

 

[Truck]

i mean natural habitat as in water conditions etc, and housing the right fish in right numbers, and with compatible species.

i mean you wouldnt keep fish in bleach would you?

 

[hollanda88]

i mean natural habitat as in water conditions etc, and housing the right fish in right numbers, and with compatible species.

i mean you wouldnt keep fish in bleach would you?

awwww crap thats where im going wrong lol

some fish may life in groups in the wild that causes them stress if they are the least dominant member

 

[Miah002]

lol this thread lasted long and hlolando continued the argument with truck.