Sociality In Fish

[hollanda88]

LMAO, while reading this thread i have just watched my angel courting a clown loach

 

[Miah002]

What if you have a small tank and add 6 neons?

You would have a huge ammonia spike.

LOL angel courting a loach.

 

[Truck]

What if you have a small tank and add 6 neons?

You would have a huge ammonia spike.

LOL angel courting a loach.

you would with three. in a small tank obviously but you should still keep an eye on ammonia and nitrite after adding new fish, and i would rather my fish be happy from the start, because i know i can keep on top of ammonia

 

[Miah002]

Even if you could what happens if the you hav eto go out for a while and the ammonia spikes?

This will harm your fish.

 

[hollanda88]

You can tell if a fish is insecure by viewing there behaviour. not necessarily you cant tell if a fish is stressed can you? unless it shows physical disease etc
If it's abnormal then there is certainly something wrong.

You may be able to tell if an animal is distressed from their behaviour although behaviour may be continued or shown through anticipation to feed or other anticipatory behaviours so may not be a good measure of stress.

If there were no problems with behaviours or stress physiology whats wrong with it?

 

[Miah002]

They should be fine but you wouldn't get all the joy of having two neons rather than having 6.

 

[Truck]

Even if you could what happens if the you hav eto go out for a while and the ammonia spikes?

This will harm your fish.

you buy fish when its convenient, it doesnt matter what number you put in your still going to have a spike! so thats why you should always keep an eye on water params after buying fish, because of spikes, that need rectifying, regardless of how many fish are added.

If there were no problems with behaviours or stress physiology whats wrong with it?

do you have any scientific evidence to suggest a fish will be happy if not kept appropriately?

 

[Miah002]

It's true you will get a spike but it will be a small one and your filter bacteria can adjust.

If you add loads then your filter won't adjust in a couple of days, it will take weeks.

 

[Truck]

It's true you will get a spike but it will be a small one and your filter bacteria can adjust.

If you add loads then your filter won't adjust in a couple of days, it will take weeks.

but you should still be checking for a spike and doing water changes to rectify it! and with more fish you would have to do a more frequent water change, which i for one am willing to do.

 

[hollanda88]

do you have any scientific evidence to suggest a fish will be happy if not kept appropriately?

lol, this is all in theory, there must be an example where keeping fish in 'abnormal' social situations will not bother them

For example in orangutans in situ they live a relatively solitary life style coming together to mate obviously; but ex situ they are often kept in groups because the only thing keeping them solitary in the wild is restriction of food resources and this is not a problem in the zoo environment.

andrew

 

[Truck]

do you have any scientific evidence to suggest a fish will be happy if not kept appropriately?

lol, this is all in theory, there must be an example where keepit fish in 'abnormal' social situations will not bother them

For example in orangutans in situ they live a relatively solitary life style coming together to mate obviously; but ex situ they are often kept in groups because the only thing keeping them solitary in the wild is restriction of food resources and this is not a problem in the zoo environment.

andrew

an orangutan is a bit different to a fish lol, there has been scientific research that has suggested that orangutans show facial expression

 

[hollanda88]

an orangutan is a bit different to a fish lol, there has been scientific research that has suggested that orangutans show facial expression

y is an orang diffirent to a fish? there is plenty of research in the behaviour of fish (mostly reef and fw uk stream fish) therefore you can compare to that however any behavioural studies are biased as the presence of an observer will alter the behaviour.

 

[Truck]

any real scientifc research will not be bias as a good scientist repeats tests, fish show no expression physically as to how they feel besides movement.

and an orangutan is easier to test as you can talk to them and they may understand you etc. where as you dont know wether a fish can understand you.

 

[Jazzzz]

i only keep 3 black neons, 4 white clouds, and 1 guppy but theese 8 seem to all swim around together so i decieded they are now a group

 

[hollanda88]

any real scientifc research will not be bias as a good scientist repeats tests, fish show no expression physically as to how they feel besides movement.

and an orangutan is easier to test as you can talk to them and they may understand you etc. where as you dont know wether a fish can understand you.

how much scientific research have you read i.e. from a peer reviewed journal. Most scientific research identifies pitfalls in research.

How do fish communicate? They must communicate is some way be it olfactory, gustatory or through visual stimuli (not much i know about)

CARLSTEAD, K., 1996. Effects of captivity on the behaviour of wild mammals. In: KLIEMAN, D., ALLEN, M., THOMPSON, K. and LUMPKIN, S., eds., Wild mammals in captivity: Principles and techniques. London: University of Chicago Press. 1996. pp 317-333.

MORGAN, K. and TROMBORG, C., 2007. Sources of stress in captivity. Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 102 (3-4), 262-302.

RABIN, L, 2003. Maintaining behavioural diversity in captivity for conservation: natural behavioural management. Animal Welfare, 12, 85-94.

VEASEY, J., WARAN, N. and YOUNG, R., 1996. On comparing the behaviour of zoo housed animals with wild conspecifics as a welfare indicator, using the giraffe (Giraffa camelopardalis) as a model. Animal Welfare, 5(6), 139-153.