So Now What?

[quicksandsecrets]

I just joined the forum, and I wish I had found it before I started setting up my new tank. I successfully cycled a tank with fish 10-15 years ago, so I figured I could just do the same thing without much trouble. Now that I am a month in, and doing a lot of internet research - I am realizing things aren't as simple as I remembered them being. So now I have a few concerns that may or may not be related. Any insight would be appreciated - and I am sure I will get some deserved criticism for not going fishless (I didn't understand the process when I first heard about it, but the more I read, the more it makes sense). I can't go back in time, so I am trying to make the best of the situation.

I decided to set up a 29g aquarium using three tiger barbs, because I read they were hardy and would withstand the water chemistry changes of cycling. I have been watching ammonia readings for weeks, they mostly stayed at 0.25 for a long time, then spiked up to 1.0 about a week ago. I kept doing pwc, but the ammonia keeps drifting back to 0.25. My nitrites and nitrates still read 0ppm. So I am guessing that my tank has not yet cycled. I have just discovered that the tap water in Los Angeles has chloramine, and from I have been reading, that breaks down to chlorine and ammonia. Would that explain why my ammonia readings keep landing at 0.25 even after treating the tap water, doing frequent 20% water changes and limiting feeding?

I now understand that barbs do better in a larger group of say 5-7. But I am reluctant to add more fish until I am confident the tank has truly cycled. I believe I need to see ammonia & nitrite readings stable at 0, along with an increase in nitrates before I think of adding any new fish. Correct me if that is a mistake.

The barbs are a bit rowdy and one of them tends to hide out most of the day. At times he hovers nose down/tail up in a corner. I have read mixed thoughts on this - is he hidng or is this a sign of the ammonia presence?

So, let's see...... I am subjecting fish to ammonia while I wait for the cycle to complete, I am housing a less than ideal number of barbs and one is getting bullied, and I am mot sure if the chloramine in the tap water means that my partial water changes are simply putting ammonia back into the tank.

I can see that I made a couple poor choices early on, but now I want to make sure I am headed in the right direction, even if it means more work and a good deal of patience.

Ideas?

also, ph=7.6, temp=78-80F

 

[This Old Spouse]

I now understand that barbs do better in a larger group of say 5-7. But I am reluctant to add more fish until I am confident the tank has truly cycled. I believe I need to see ammonia & nitrite readings stable at 0, along with an increase in nitrates before I think of adding any new fish. Correct me if that is a mistake.

Yes, they do better in larger groups, but I wouldn't get more until your tank is fully cycled, and then only get a small number. You can increase the numbers later.

If you're not willing to take the ones you have back to the LFS and do a fishless cycle, then please do daily water changes per the guidelines in the beginner's forum. You should be using a high quality dechlorinator that also removes ammonia such as StressCoat +. I overdose just a tad to be on the safe side because our tap water has ammonia.

Try getting some plants and decorations so they can hide when they need to. Tigers do tend to stand on their heads quite a bit so I would be overly concerned unless he quits eating and doesn't seem very active. They also tend to lose color when they're stressed. The dark black strips will go a silvery greyish color.

Sure glad you could join us on this forum! There are lots of very knowledgeable people here who are more than willing to help.

 

[quicksandsecrets]

If you're not willing to take the ones you have back to the LFS and do a fishless cycle, then please do daily water changes per the guidelines in the beginner's forum. You should be using a high quality dechlorinator that also removes ammonia such as StressCoat +. I overdose just a tad to be on the safe side because our tap water has ammonia.

sooooo, I was thinking about that. If I decide to scrap the fish-in cycle, return the barbs (if they will take them), do I simply start adding ammonia to the water I already have - or do I need to empty the tank and start over from scratch?

thanks for the reply and the welcome

 

[creeker]

We have the chloramines down here as well. I just make sure to use a product that is for neutralizing them. You should be able to switch to fishless at this point. No need to start all over.

 

[The Taffy Apple]

If you're not willing to take the ones you have back to the LFS and do a fishless cycle, then please do daily water changes per the guidelines in the beginner's forum. You should be using a high quality dechlorinator that also removes ammonia such as StressCoat +. I overdose just a tad to be on the safe side because our tap water has ammonia.

sooooo, I was thinking about that. If I decide to scrap the fish-in cycle, return the barbs (if they will take them), do I simply start adding ammonia to the water I already have - or do I need to empty the tank and start over from scratch?

thanks for the reply and the welcome

Good day to you Q.S.S... well done on looking for some advice it was this forum that sorted me out when i was in a similiar situation.

If your Local Fish Store is willing to take back the Barbs, then the vast majority of users on here will give a BIG to choosing a fishless cycle. If you do choose to do it, then yes change the water and start again (but remember NOT to remove or change any of your filter media, there is obviously something starting to work in there!).
I shall be interested to see what you decide to do and with your obvious admiration for the hobby would love to read your results.

Best of luck with it,
Terry.

 

[HayzH]

I think which Cycle you chose is personal preference...
I started in the END of August with 1 tank which soon led to 3 tanks all cycling at the same time. /
I was doing all fish-less cycles..but after 55days of one of them just bobbing about..i lost paitence and decided to finish off the cycle with fish in.
It's been 3 days now and all seems to be very stable.
My other 2 tanks are continuing to fish-less cycle, by adding Ammonia each night.
I would definately recommend fish-LESS. BUT be prepared not to see fish in your tank again for a long time. Which is hard when you have seen them in there to begin with (i had 3 mollies die in their first 2 days)

Good luck on what ever you decide..and welcome to the forum x

 

[the_lock_man]

Just a quick query? Is that old tank you mentioned still up & running? If so, you could take some of the filter media from that to kickstart your cycle process in the new tank.

 

[CrustyOnEastCoast]

Chloramines are a real headache. I lost fish because of them. Some dechlorinators that say that they treat chloramines will just break it down, so you still end up with chlorine and ammonia. You need one that also "treats" the resulting ammonia by binding it so it turns into ammonium - which is 'basically' harmless to fish. Seachem Prime definitely works for this, others do as well. Aqueon water conditioner definitely does NOT, as I learned the hard way, and killed my fish.

But even when the ammonia is changed to ammonium, it will still register as ammonia in most test kits, since most test kits don't differentiate between the two. Also, these dechlorinators typically only bind the ammonia as ammonium for about 24 hours. So, if you don't have enough beneficial bacteria in your aquarium to consume the ammonium within that time, it will turn back to ammonia again and harm your fish.

As an alternative, if you are lucky and have acidic water .. somewhere under 7.0 PH (I forget the magic number) then you won't ever have ammonia, it will always be ammonium. However, some say that large quantities of ammonium aren't great for fish .. but I just don't really know about that.

 

[quicksandsecrets]

Just a quick query? Is that old tank you mentioned still up & running? If so, you could take some of the filter media from that to kickstart your cycle process in the new tank.

Unfortunately, no. I haven't had an aquarium for a number of years.

 

[quicksandsecrets]

Chloramines are a real headache. I lost fish because of them. Some dechlorinators that say that they treat chloramines will just break it down, so you still end up with chlorine and ammonia. You need one that also "treats" the resulting ammonia by binding it so it turns into ammonium - which is 'basically' harmless to fish. Seachem Prime definitely works for this, others do as well. Aqueon water conditioner definitely does NOT, as I learned the hard way, and killed my fish.

But even when the ammonia is changed to ammonium, it will still register as ammonia in most test kits, since most test kits don't differentiate between the two. Also, these dechlorinators typically only bind the ammonia as ammonium for about 24 hours. So, if you don't have enough beneficial bacteria in your aquarium to consume the ammonium within that time, it will turn back to ammonia again and harm your fish.

As an alternative, if you are lucky and have acidic water .. somewhere under 7.0 PH (I forget the magic number) then you won't ever have ammonia, it will always be ammonium. However, some say that large quantities of ammonium aren't great for fish .. but I just don't really know about that.

We have the chloramines down here as well. I just make sure to use a product that is for neutralizing them. You should be able to switch to fishless at this point. No need to start all over.

Anyone have good results using AmQuel+ when chloramine is in the tap water?
Also, the PH in my tap is on the high side (7.6)

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Use a dechlorinator like Prime or Stress Coat. These will convert the ammonia to ammonium (which is far less toxic) while keeping it available to the bacteria, so you don't harm the cycling process.

 

[quicksandsecrets]

Use a dechlorinator like Prime or Stress Coat. These will convert the ammonia to ammonium (which is far less toxic) while keeping it available to the bacteria, so you don't harm the cycling process.

Thanks for the tip, I knew about Stress Coat, but hadn't thought of Prime. So here's where I get confused.

Seachem /Prime website says:

Prime® removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity.

Nearly all companies manufacture a product that removes chlorine. None of those, however, can compare in quality, concentration, or effectiveness to Seachem’s flagship product: Prime®. Prime® is the second most concentrated dechlorinator on the market after our own aquavitro alpha™. A single 100 mL bottle will treat 1000 US gallons of tap water. Prime® will remove both chlorine and chloramines from municipal water supplies.

Prime® also contains a binder which renders ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate non-toxic. It is very important to understand how those two functions work together. All dechlorinators operate through a chemical process known as reduction. In this process, toxic dissolved chlorine gas (Cl2) is converted into non-toxic chloride ions (Cl-). The reduction process also breaks the bonds between chlorine and nitrogen atoms in the chloramine molecule (NH2Cl), freeing the chlorine atoms and replacing them with hydrogen (H) to create ammonia (NH3).

Typically, dechlorinators stop there, leaving an aquarium full of toxic ammonia! Seachem takes the necessary next step by including an ammonia binder to detoxify the ammonia produced in the reduction process.

Kordon/AmQuel site says:

detoxifies chlorines including those chlorines in chloramines
detoxifies all of the kinds of toxic nitrogen compounds in the water
detoxifies all forms of ammonia/ammonium/nitrites/nitrates from the water, including ammonia in chloramines

AmQuel Plus (also referred to as AmQuel Plus) has the ability to make the "nitrogen cycle"totally nontoxic in aquarium and pond keeping, without interfering with the cycle's process in any way, and without interfering with the beneficial bacteria that are involved with the cycle. AmQuel Plus detoxifies all chlorine and chloramines added to the water by public water utilities and toxic nitrogen compounds that can appear in aquarium and pond water over time, thereby making water changes less necessary, and providing a safer environment for fishes and aquatic life.

AmQuel Plus reduces the problems with "new tank [and pond] syndrome," which in great part are caused by the nitrifying bacteria in the water. AmQuel Plus makes biological filtration much safer by detoxifying its natural processes. AmQuel Plus does all this without having to be removed, once it is put into the water. It remains totally nontoxic to aquatic life.

AmQuel Plus should be used for setting up aquariums or ponds, for water changes, overcrowded aquariums and ponds, the control of toxic nitrogen compounds commonly found in water while the nitrogen cycle is established...as well as afterwards as nitrogen compounds accumulate in the aquarium and pond water.

sounds like they are saying the same thing, but maybe I am missing something.

edit: upon doing a search on Amquel on the forum, I see quite a few references to Prime/Amquel, so I am guessing they are similar after all.

 

[Aqua Tom]

Prime & sresscoat do reletivly the same thing, The major difference is cost, 500ml of prime is about £15 the same amount of stresscout is around £11-12.

At first glance the Stesscoat seems better value untill you look at the dosage required. Prime is so concentrated that just 5ml doses 200 litres of water, so it actualy works out cheaper.


Tom

 

[quicksandsecrets]

So I am guessing there is no sure fire answer, but I will throw it out there anyway.......

While I am pondering the possibility of returning the barbs to the store and moving to a fish-less cycle, is there any way to determine if I am nearing the completion of the fish-in cycle at this point?

If I felt I was approaching that point, I would just keep doing the frequent water changes - but if this is going to be several more weeks, then it may be time to pull these barbs out.

Four weeks, I have kept ammonia in check with water changes, it peaked at 1.0 one time. I wasn't testing for nitrite / nitrate until just recently, but both have been 0 for close to a week. Is there really any rule of thumb on how long the process takes, or am I just waiting to see a bump in nitrates?

 

[The Taffy Apple]

So I am guessing there is no sure fire answer, but I will throw it out there anyway.......

While I am pondering the possibility of returning the barbs to the store and moving to a fish-less cycle, is there any way to determine if I am nearing the completion of the fish-in cycle at this point?

If I felt I was approaching that point, I would just keep doing the frequent water changes - but if this is going to be several more weeks, then it may be time to pull these barbs out.

Four weeks, I have kept ammonia in check with water changes, it peaked at 1.0 one time. I wasn't testing for nitrite / nitrate until just recently, but both have been 0 for close to a week. Is there really any rule of thumb on how long the process takes, or am I just waiting to see a bump in nitrates?

If there is currently no NitrAtes in your readings then i'm afraid your tank isn't cycled. Fish-in cycles CAN last for months, whereas a fishless cycle COULD take half that time... as i said earlier in the thread, it's obvious something is happening in your filter, but the only way to really see what is happening is add ammonia and record daily how long it takes to convert... something that can't be done when your Tiger Barbs are still in the tank, but hey, your choice amigo.

Terry.