Smudgers 2nd Tank

[smudger123]

Hi all,

This is a thread for my new Rio 240. My partners 125 is cycling nicely but this tank is very intimidating lol!

Ok, well I absolutely adore heavily planted tanks and might try copying an aquascape plan for my first go. Writing my shopping list is much harder than I thought though with plants in mind and I'd really appreciate some help getting everything up together in my head and for the shopping list..

1) Fertilizer & Substrate: I went with a thin layer of pea gravel, 1.5" of Caribsea Eco Complete and 1" Sand for the 125 - unsure about 240 though. Thinking of a gravel Laterite mix with a sand or fine black gravel top - any good? Money a bit tight for eco complete in this one - £75!!!

2) Plant fertilizer - absolutely no idea what to go for here, so much info on the web has left me feeling more confused than when I started out lol!

3) Lighting - Tank a couple of years old, came with 2 tubes but have no idea what they are. Here's a piccy for ID.....

I keep reading about T8s, T5s, High-Lites etc and don't actually know what I have on either of the tanks. Knowing would help me out a lot!

Reflectors: I bought 2 for the 125 but unsure on this one - it depends what the tubes are. Also moonlight kit fitted a bit too close to one of the tubes to fit a reflector in there?

4) Moonlight kit - EDIT: Now ID'd, its an Interpret compact starter unit with moon glow bulb.

5) Wood - Guy called it petritied wood but it looks like bogwood to me?....

6) Air pump with 2 lines to 2 airstones - Will replace airstones I think, they are pretty dirty. Why doesn't the pump have a way to alter air flow? It pumps a frenzy of bubbles and I think I'd like something a bit gentler - are there valves you buy? Also the guy doesnt have those little valves for backflow anywhere on his tubing - Im gussing I will have to purchase some before using it? One last thing - can airstones be used with sand?

7) Filter tower - Came without sponges, I believe im after the 'standard' size? Shall I go with 2 x fine in lower basket and 2 x coarse in upper with a carbon sponge and filter wool? I've been told the green sponges are pants so in previous suggestion replaced it with coarse - good idea?

8) Pump - Arrived without the black tubes that the 125 had. Will I need to replace those or will the grey pump nozze make it out of the hole? What is a venturi kit and are they worth getting?

9) CO2 - been reading up about this and would like to give it a go with the DIY set up. Will 2 large bottles like in most of the instructions be sufficent for my tank? What diffuser is best - I've heard good things about handmade glass, DIY gravel vacuum reactors and pipe into the (missing) powerhead tubes.... Unsure though? Also, something came with the tank but don't really know what it is or how to use it:

LOADS of questions!! Sorry peeps! They are all buzzing around in my head - 2 weeks of solid research did not prepare me for setting up a planted tank because there's sooo much information and a lot of it's conflicting

Any advice greatly appreciated!

 

[Miss Wiggle]

loads of q's you'd probably be better asking this in the planted tank forum smudger but i'll give it a go for you! Some of the more experienced planty guys will probably come along and correct me shortly

To do a nice planted aquascape you've basically got two main routes you can go down, before you start planning you need to research both and choose which way to go. Doping bits of one and bits of the other will just result in a bit algae ridden mess!

So you can either go high tech or low tech

High tech means lots of maintenance but very good rapid plant growth and the capability to grow pretty much anything you like. To do this you need lots of light, an expensive/decent substrate, CO2 (on this size tank probably pressurized) and regular fertilisation, there's a pinned topic in the planted tank forum on EI which is what I'd recommend you go through if you go down this route.

Here's a pic of our tank when my other half was running EI, you can see the results are excellent when you get it right

however the substrate alone cost him £300, the CO2 at least another £100, expensive plants etc etc...... it soon adds up so I wouldn't recommend it on a budget!

Now a word of warning with this sort of set up, it takes daily maintenance, this was my other halfs tank and he looked after all the planting, he's a builder and he had to work away in London for a few weeks so he was away mon-fri and back at the weekend...... after about 3/4 weeks it was an algae ridden mess and we ended up having to strip out the whoile thing and start over. We won't be going down this route again as it's too much committment for our lifestyles.

Low tech - This gives much slower plant growth, you can achieve the same results but you're looking more at years to get the scape where you want not months. You make some upgrades/additions in terms of lighting CO2 substrate and fertilisation as opposed to a standard set up, but don't go crazy on it all. The tank will be much easier to manage but you may struggle with some hard to grow plants and such like. that's what I'd suggest you do to start out with.

so questions -

1) Fertilizer & Substrate: I went with a thin layer of pea gravel, 1.5" of Caribsea Eco Complete and 1" Sand for the 125 - unsure about 240 though. Thinking of a gravel Laterite mix with a sand or fine black gravel top - any good? Money a bit tight for eco complete in this one - £75!!!

I've always been a bit dubious with this layered substrate thing, they can get mixed up very easily, if you plant/uproot something you disturb it and when the bottom layers are released into the tank you can have a lot of problems. We've had a lot of sucess on low tech set up's by just using inert large smooth grained sand and adding fertiliser tablets every couple of weeks.

2) Plant fertilizer - absolutely no idea what to go for here, so much info on the web has left me feeling more confused than when I started out lol!

- Pass!!!

3) Lighting - Tank a couple of years old, came with 2 tubes but have no idea what they are. Here's a piccy for ID.....

I keep reading about T8s, T5s, High-Lites etc and don't actually know what I have on either of the tanks. Knowing would help me out a lot!

Reflectors: I bought 2 for the 125 but unsure on this one - it depends what the tubes are. Also moonlight kit fitted a bit too close to one of the tubes to fit a reflector in there?

what you should look for on the bulb is a wattage, you then work out how many watts you have for each gallon of water, so if you had 60 watts on a 30 gallon tank you'd have 2 watts per gallon. You probably want to aim around 1.5 wpg. For good plant growth you'll want to replace tubes every 6 months or so, so I'd expect the second hand ones you have will need replacing

4) Moonlight kit - EDIT: Now ID'd, its an Interpret compact starter unit with moon glow bulb.

blue bulbs are no good for plant growth and will cause algae.

5) Wood - Guy called it petritied wood but it looks like bogwood to me?....

petrified woods another word people use for bogwood.... same stuff!

6) Air pump with 2 lines to 2 airstones - Will replace airstones I think, they are pretty dirty. Why doesn't the pump have a way to alter air flow? It pumps a frenzy of bubbles and I think I'd like something a bit gentler - are there valves you buy? Also the guy doesnt have those little valves for backflow anywhere on his tubing - Im gussing I will have to purchase some before using it? One last thing - can airstones be used with sand?

if you're adding CO2 you don't want to have airstones running, they'l knock all the CO2 out of the water.

7) Filter tower - Came without sponges, I believe im after the 'standard' size? Shall I go with 2 x fine in lower basket and 2 x coarse in upper with a carbon sponge and filter wool? I've been told the green sponges are pants so in previous suggestion replaced it with coarse - good idea?

scrap the carbon sponge, replace it with normal sponge and then you're good to go!

8) Pump - Arrived without the black tubes that the 125 had. Will I need to replace those or will the grey pump nozze make it out of the hole? What is a venturi kit and are they worth getting?

not sure what you mean!

9) CO2 - been reading up about this and would like to give it a go with the DIY set up. Will 2 large bottles like in most of the instructions be sufficent for my tank? What diffuser is best - I've heard good things about handmade glass, DIY gravel vacuum reactors and pipe into the (missing) powerhead tubes.... Unsure though? Also, something came with the tank but don't really know what it is or how to use it:

i'm rubbish with CO2, will pass on this question.

Lots of ramblings, hope something helps you out a bit!

 

[smudger123]

Wow, thank you for your reply Miss Wiggle! You've been so helpful the past couple of weeks, It's very much appreciated. Have a thank you flower... !

Well, admittedly I was researching high tech - having a look at low tech though I can see how it would be much more suited to me as a beginner. Beautiful tank, Its such a shame how much work is needed though, very inconvenient for the moderately lazy! Am I right in thinking low tech means easy grow plants and ones that need low light? What is EI?

Well as for my questions i've been getting my thoughts up together and deciding on a definite shopping list for Wednesday. My ponderings....

Lighting is causing me some concern, I'm currently at 1.1wpg I considered upgrading to T5 but I can't believe how pricey that is - If they came with the tubes it would be different but £130?! No chance. Instead I'm going with an Ultraseal Double Starter Unit with 2 x T8s and attaching one to the front and back - 4 x T8s should be plenty for my needs and the option to run them off two timers and have a selection of tubes is very appealing indeed. 4 x reflectors - sorted!

Moonlight kit was an Interpret Compact T5 24W - I considered replacing the moonlight bulb with a compact plantgro 24W but the lighting in the tank would be very uneven and the connectors that hold it to the flaps are soo rubbish its scary! Might put that one on ebay..

Leaning towards laterite with a thick sand layer with the substrate - eco complete a pain in the bum for mixing with the sand in my 125. Keen to try laterite though - its going to be hard to resist and not too pricey.

Sponges - I will ditch the carbon then, doesnt it leach everything back into the tank if you don't replace it anyway? Shall I go with the extra coarse - 2 x fine in bottom basket and 3 x Coarse in upper? Will that fit?

I'll get the airstones going until I try a DIY CO2 set up when i'm feeling braver. Had a lot of trouble finding out which diffuser to use, aqua essentials recommended an atomiser due to the low pressure of the yeast set up. Would definitely not want to spent lots of money on a pressurised CO2 setup when i'm such a newbie but I'd be intrigued to give DIY a go..

Fertilizer - Will go with ProFito - any objections or suggestions welcomed!

The tubing stuff was the nozzle that fits onto the powerhead and sends the flow out of the filter unit. The 125 has a couple of connecting nozzles and you choose where it points. 240 didnt have this but I ordered replacements cheaply.

Plan to do a massive order and get everything delivered at once. It isnt even occurring to me yet I can have fishies in there lol!!!

On a side note a HUGE selection of plastic plants came with the tank, if anyone is interested......

 

[Miss Wiggle]

no probs at all Smudger, I like helping people out especially when they're so enthusiastic and receptive as yourself. Sure you're gonna turn out to be a great fishkeeper

EI stands for Estimate Index, there's a pinned topic in the planted tank forum which explains some more. I'd definately advise starting up a post there and chatting to the guys there before making your shopping list. I'm no plant expert, just knows bits and bobs that I've picked up from Ian. The jist of it is you add so much light, CO2 and fertiliser that there is more than the plants could ever need, so they grow as fast as is practically possible and outcompete any algae so in theory you get loads of plant growth and no algae at all...... so where's the catch i hear you ask! On a reasonably large tank it's v expensive to get all the equipment that you need and if you miss a week's ferts or something like that it can go wrong quite spectacularly.

I think if you upgrade the lighting to 1.5WPG, get a decent substrate in and start using some ferts you'll definately get better growth than you have been so far, just give it a try like that for a bit then once you've got a bit more plant keeping experience under your belt you can always upgrade it to high tech.

 

[OldMan47]

The T-5, t-8 etc. refer to the lamp diameter as measured in eighths of an inch so a t-8 is 1 ich and a t-12 is 1 1/2 inch. The more modern t-5 lamps are 5/8 inch. There is no real mystery except what the lighting people try to make of it. As MW suggested, you can grow many plants at 1.5 wpg and won't be forced to get into CO2 at that level. At 2 or 3 wpg the plants you can grow will expand but you will have a lot of algae trouble with higher light and no CO2.
On the filter sponges, take a look at the filter. Usually an external canister will have flow go from bottom to top through the baskets. If that is your set up, the coarse filters come first followed by the finer ones so start with coarse on the bottom and fine on the top.

 

[smudger123]

Well my 240 is now cycling next to the 125. The sand must have been rather dusty because the water is very cloudy even though it was washed

Ive placed the filter wool from my 125 between the two top coarse sponges so from bottom to top it goes fine - fine- coarse - 125 wool - coarse - carbon - filter wool. Wasnt sure where to put 125 wool because its so much smaller than needed in the 'standard' size 240 filter. Planning on removing it once cycled but will it be ok there?

Topped ammonia up to 5 last night and 18hrs on its 1.5 so something's going on already.

I've been planning the innhabitants, got some clear favourites. Hoping you could confirm the choices are compatable for my final choice and also guide me on the order I can add them and when...

Cherrys (from 125)
Harlequin Rasbora
Chili or Galaxy Rasbora
Panda Corys
Otos
Sparkling Gouramis
Clown Pleco (will it need a friend?)
Scissortail Rasbora, Upsidedown catfish, Glass catfish (I like them but aware they could eat my small choices. Would cherrys and harlequins be safe with each?)
Amano Shrimp
Nerite Snails

Notice how i'm avoiding tetras, the phantoms have spooked me for life I think lol!!

 

[smudger123]

This cycle is driving me INSANE!!!!

Its been 20 days now, thats 2 days longer than my first tank and I added mature media...twice!!! Only difference is I'm not using Safestart in this one - guess it might work after all.

Ammonia has been doing 4ppm in 12 hrs since day three but nitrite has been 8 for 16 days now - 16 days!!!!!!!

If i see that particular shade of purple for much longer i'm going to go a bit nuts - whats going on, I thought the mature media would make it cycle quicker?

 

[waterdrop]

ha ha smudger, if you wanted to see something to make you feel better you should search up a couple threads by me titled Oliver's tank gives way and Oliver's new tank. Should make you feel better to see entries like "Day 141" LOL!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Miss Wiggle]

the thing with cycling is theres about a zillion variables which we have no way of measuring or any control over. yes in theory mature media should speed it up, but if, because of all these other factors, your cycle was actually predestined to take 3 months and it gets done in 1 month then it has speeded it up! Don't try and compare it to tanks cycled at other times, it just doesn't work that way! Sorry

Have you tried a few water changes, try a 50% change every couple of days and see if that speeds things along a bit. pH hasn't crashed has it?

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, you can use pH as a way to tell a bit about KH if you aren't measuring KH. If you have no carbonate hardness, those little lithotrophic critters may not have enough rock to eat, lol.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[smudger123]

Sorry I took so long to reply, I've been on my holidays .....although actually there wasnt much need for shades as it rained constantly lol!

Tank still doing the same thing, ammonia 4ppm in 12hrs and nitrite on 8 all the time. Readings:

pH 7.4
KH 6
GH >10

Just waiting now I guess although it feels like its stuck and I should be doing something - still finding it very frustrating.

Instead of raising the other thread, my 125 pH was 7.2 then rose to 7.4 and is now 7.6. Why is it creeping up like that?
Is there a point where I should be worried and look to bring it down or am I reading too much into it?

 

[waterdrop]

Sounds like you're reading too much into the pH thing to me.

On the bigger tank, remember, it usually takes twice as long or longer for the nitrite second phase to play out compared to the first phase where you are watching the ammonia start to drop and then drop faster.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[smudger123]

Horay - nitrite is dropping!!

I remembered the other day my other tank cycled the day after I put an airstone in. Thought it was worth a shot and put a air curtain in the 240 - since then a film has formed on the sand and the nitrite is starting to drop, from a stubborn 19 day 8ppm to 1ppm in two days. Could be coincidence I guess but maybe the n-bacteria needed an O2 boost?

 

[waterdrop]

I love saying its going to take a long time, almost instantly gets the person't cycle going

Roughing the surface with some bubbles can't hurt. Nitrites, warmth, O2, water movement and a little carbonate hardness are the things the N-Bacs like.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[smudger123]

31 days now, ammonia doing 12hr drop since day 3 and nitrite refusing to do anything for a whole month.

Had a brief drop to 1ppm then it rose back up and is just sitting there again. This cycle is making me so angry, Is there really not anything I can do to speed up the nitrite bacteria? Something must be causing it to stay at that level - we are talking they're not multiplying right? Why?! Everything is stable, its had 3 lots of mature media from my 125 now. There must be something I can do surely because it seems to have stalled.

I may give in now and buying SafeStart, any other suggestions welcomed - i'll try anything at this point because we can't afford two tanks for much longer.

edit: temp at 27.3 right now, would higher help? room for 1/2 a sponge in lower basket in both tanks, should I add 1/2 to 125 for a week then place it in 240 basket? What about adding sand from my 125? I wouldnt be able to take much though and the other tank is so much bigger i wonder if it would make much difference? Swap the bogwood pieces, would that help?

edit2: doing a test strip today and looking at it in sunlight next to a 125 strip it would seem the kH may be at 0 for the big tank. I can't be sure plus they are so unreliable - it gave my ammonia off the charts when a liquid test showed 0. pH is at 7.2 which is my tap water and what my 125 was until it began rising so no problem there. GH same as 125 also. Is there anything i can do to raise kH temporarily? I dont want to do anything that could mess up the tank for any length of time because strips are awful - would be interesting to try though.

edit 3: sorry lol, keept thinking of things to ask. If kH has dropped would something bad in my tank of caused that? If that were to happen with fish in it would the cycle stop of fish die?

edit 4: last one i promise... lack of phosphates maybe? Also been using tropica plant nutrition weekly - not sure if that would do anything but thought worth a mention just in case.