Sick Zebra Loach :(

[Kaffeh]

Hi, I'm hoping some of you can help me. I've got a tank with 7 (now 6) loaches - a mixture of zebras and what I think are double-banded loachs (?). Anyway, one of my zebras developed a droopy stomach. I thought perhaps I had been over-feeding him (cos we all know how much of an appetite these little fellas have!!). However, his stomach kept expanding (I made a point of not over feeding them) and he began to lie on his back. He'd occasionally swim around the tank but it wouldn't be as co-ordianted as normal. I began to worry so did a water-test - everything was fine except the nitrate level which was quite high (35) . So we carried out the relevant treatments and water changes and brought it back down to ok levels. However, my poor little fella died

I took a photo of him to show you what I meant by the expanded stomach cos I really want to know what caused it as I don't want my others to go the same way. They all seem ok atm (touch wood) and I've cut down on their food.

So, did I create an obese fish or was it dropsy? Or something worse?? Click to see loach

 

[Kaffeh]

And now I've just checked the others - and another one appears to be devloping a swollen abdomen too Any ideas??

 

[rabbut]

Normaly to diagnose dropsy, we would ask if it had any raised scales, but since we are dealing with a scaleless fish.....

What do you feed and when normaly? I just want to try and rule out other posibilities before investigating the bacterial side, as that may get complicated here...

What is you usual maintanance shedule? Have you added anything new to the tank recently (ournaments, fish or different to usual water treatments)

Are any of the other fish exibiting the same symptoms?

Nitrate at 35 for most trops is fine, unless keeping nitrate sencitive species such as discus

All the best
Rabbut

 

[Kaffeh]

Normaly to diagnose dropsy, we would ask if it had any raised scales, but since we are dealing with a scaleless fish.....

What do you feed and when normaly? I just want to try and rule out other posibilities before investigating the bacterial side, as that may get complicated here...

What is you usual maintanance shedule? Have you added anything new to the tank recently (ournaments, fish or different to usual water treatments)

Are any of the other fish exibiting the same symptoms?

Nitrate at 35 for most trops is fine, unless keeping nitrate sencitive species such as discus

All the best
Rabbut

Hi there I usually feed them a varied diet - incl flake, ocassionaly bloodworm and brineshrimp (both frozen), sinking wafers and dragonfeed.

I usually do a water change every 2 days - 15%. The only thing newly added is sterazin as we noticed some flicking with a loach that was in there (but has now been moved out). They're being treated for 10 days with that.

One of my other loaches appears to be developing a sagging stomach (my partner doesn't think so so I might just be being too cautious there )

Thanks for your help I dont want to loose any more of them, they are beauties!

 

[rabbut]

The fact that it is spreading is not good, as is the fact that you are currently running Stearazin. You need to leave a 4 day break between Sterazin and most anti-bacterial meds....If we can rule out eerything but this you will have problems. Becterial infections spread fast without treatment, and 14 days of not been able to treat may mean disaster. Hopefuly this won't be the case, but if it is, your choice of meds may be a big issue

Other than bacteria, diet is the only other thing jumping out at me as being something that effectls all How often do you feed your dried feed, when compaired to frozen feeds?

Hopefuly some other member will know of another issue that would caurse these symptoms, as I honestly hope for your sake this isn't bacterial

All the best
Rabbut

 

[mikev]

Either bacterial or internal parasites. It does not appear to be simply obese: some of my B.Striata are obese and the body shape is different...
Internal parasites are more likely unless the tank history rules them out: if no new fish or plants were added to the tank for 3-4 months, no deaths occurred, and no live food was used, this shifts the likelihood toward bacteria.

You may also examine the anuses of all fish: with some internal parasites (not all!) you may be able to see either irritations or the parasites themselves. But if you don't see anything, it does not mean that it is not parasites.

hth, and good luck.

 

[rabbut]

I personaly belive that internal parasites are far rarer than they are diagnosed. Just my opinion though. Either way, I don't know any way of confirning internal parasites without disection, if they are not visible. If confirmation is not possible, I'd personaly start looking at bacteria first, as IME it spreads and kills far quicker than parasites. Then again I've only have to deal with internal parasites once... I can't realy make a deffinate call here, sorry

Wild fish are most likely to get parasitic issues internaly, from what I remember reading about them. Do you know if all your fish are tank bread?

All the best
Rabbut

 

[Kaffeh]

mikev - when they are obese - where does the swelling occur?

All the fish were quarenteened for a good while before going in there and they didn't show any signs of there being anything wrong with them then.

rabbut- I've no idea if they are tank bred or not. Their diet is mostly dried food - I'd say they have blood worm maybe once a week or once every 2 weeks. About a month ago they were having the frozen bloodworm several times a week but I've stopped that now, I'd prefer them to be on a varied diet.

Also, they were treated with internal bacterial meds about a week before the sterazin.

 

[rabbut]

Were you using the anti-inernal bacterial meds as a precaution, or to treat a problem?

ATB
Rabbut

 

[mikev]

mikev - when they are obese - where does the swelling occur?

More uniform...obese results in more muscle tissue, it seems that in your fish it is limited to the area in the middle.

All the fish were quarenteened for a good while before going in there and they didn't show any signs of there being anything wrong with them then.

What is "good while" ? 1 month is not sufficient with internal parasites in some cases.

You need to dissect and take a look when such deaths occur.

Zebra loaches, btw, are wild-caught. Nearly all loaches are, they are really difficult to breed. The rate of internal parasites in wild-caught loaches is very high, somewhere around 1/4-1/3. There are different types of parasites and -- here are the good news -- majority of internal parasites do not infect other fish in aquariums. In most cases internal parasites result in loss of weight rather than bloating, but both are possible. The bad news is that bloating tends to occur with the parasites that do reproduce in tanks. So I really don't like you saying and another one appears to be devloping a swollen abdomen too... I was helping a person on another forum about a month ago who had a similar story with Barbs (most definitely tank-raised btw), so we discounted internal parasites until they were actually noticed.

With my zebra's, I first bought eight with a mail order, last summer. Two definitely were infected, I saved one, was too late for the other. I added six more soon after for a total of the current 13. No way of knowing how many of them had parasites, they all were treated the moment I got them, but at least two are certain. One had a localized swelling of bacteria nature (bubble disease), successfully cured. It is a very good idea to treat loaches for internal parasites right away...

hth

 

[rabbut]

Mikev,

I am supprised to find most loaches are wild caught..I was under the impression that captive spaenings where where most are sorced from, having had hormones used to induce the spawnings.

I'll happily take your word for it though, for the time being, as loches deffinately aren't my speciality

Sterazin though does treat many internal parasites, though mostly worms, so continuing that treatment would hopefuly clear them anyway Failing that, medicated food is the way to go... Normaly with internal parasites, you see a loss of apitite. Any signs of this symptom?

Spreading between fish, these symptoms could unfortunately still indicate internal bacteria. I was hoping Mikev would rule this out here, but as of yet, without a disection, we can't make a deffinate diagnosis

All the best
Rabbut

 

[mikev]

Mikev,

I am supprised to find most loaches are wild caught..I was under the impression that captive spaenings where where most are sorced from, having had hormones used to induce the spawnings.

They most certainly do _some_ hormone-induced spawnings, both in Europe and in the Asian farms.
With respect to Asia, this is primarily clowns. And the parasite infection rate in clowns is no better than in other botia species, making one suspect that the conditions on these farms are not particularly good. Majority of clowns now do come from such farms. I never heard of Zebra's being farmed, but even if yes, this will be really uncommon, and changes nothing.

I'd be afraid to generalize. You may see loss of appetite, you may see normal appetite until the last day. You may see series of symptom-less deaths too. The clinical picture depends on the type of the parasite and size of the fish. The most common scenario is weight loss and some appetite loss indeed, this is typically the result of only a single, but large parasite. Many small nematodes may instead cause bloating and kill before it comes to weight or appetite loss.

I of course cannot diagnose this or rule anything out, only mention a possibility...

 

[rabbut]

OP, prety confusing huh??

You have two posibilitys here, both showing the same or similar symptoms. For the time being, I'd continue the course of Sterazin, and see if the deaths stop, or of the symptoms spread. I would couple this with medicated food;

Get yourself some puppy worming syrup. Add 5ml of the syrup to 10 ml of water, and soak some frozen food in it for about 1/2 an hour, so that the active ingrediant is absorbed. Then drain off the liquid, and feed to you fish The fish aren't daft though, and can smell the wormer This will often meen that they refuse the food If they do this, offer medicated food only untill you see them all eat some this ensures they all get treated. The wormer will kill the parasites.

If the medicated food and the Sterazin doesn't work, try a course of Interpet number 9 (I think) Anti-internal bacteria. This should clear the other posibiltiy. If you are dealing with internal bacteria though, by the time symptoms are showing, it is often too late for the fish I'm not sure of survival rates from internal parasites, gut I guess that isn't high either

All the best sorting this
Rabbut

 

[mikev]

I'm not sure of survival rates from internal parasites, gut I guess that isn't high either

Depends on the type of parasite. If it is larger worms that _do not_ reproduce in the tank, only the affected fish will die. If it is smaller worms that do (c.cotti, cap), survival will be zero, but full wipeout will take some time, maybe months. Typically loaches will die before it starts killing other fish.

Generally, worms can be always handled with proper medications and treatment. This is not true for bacteria. In questionable cases it is always best to treat for both simultaneously... To the best of my knowledge the only med in the UK that can be obtained without visiting a vet and is likely to work with worms is called "wormer plus", the rest are placebos.

 

[Kaffeh]

Luckily we already have wormer plus as my partner keeps discus - so I might try them on that. Although sterazin already treats internal worms? I'll definately give them some interpet no 9, as luckily have that here! (But of course, not until it's safe to after the sterazin).

Hopefully it was just the one who passed away. But I'd really like to thank you both for you help - it's very appreciated.

One more question - mikev, you say you mail order zebra loaches - could you give me the link please? And I'll def be treating them for such problems in a quarenteen tank in the future. Many thanks