Should I Be Worried?

[ibbledibble]

and thanks for being FRANK!

heh thats me just call me Anne..hehe anne frank.. yeah i know ive a weird sence of humor. But im still pulling for you to get an answer because i really want to know this answer my self!

unless of course were all putting in too much thought on these bubble nests, maybe its just when there horny and certain amounts of ammonia in the water, that certain peak or number, esp when two are in one tank i.e. male female mating time, it might trigger something in them that makes them build.

like a peacock, they only use there feathers for mating apparently but ive seen males all spread out and pretty when no females are in the area.. its just a certain smell that reminds them, or triggers something, in their brain that its mating time.

heh i could put together a human male analogy too but.. nah...

it sounds like you're a biologist...i have a bio degree and i thought THE SAME THING!!! either they are bored and building for fun (or practice), or horny, ot in their "life cycle" ( like circadian rhythm), they are doing it...i have seen them build them in their new tank, BUT NOT LIKE IN THEIR .75 us Gal vases!!!....but, i have another theory ( im developing my own since no one has an answer), is that when you go from and UNFILTERED tank, like a vase, inot a filtered one (mine is being filtered with plants, as i said in previos posts), there is aggitation to the water...your's being aggitated by a filter current (however small you may think it is, not like a stagnant vase) and mine i being aggitated by the sheer number of large and very very tiny bubbles of O2 that my plants are producing...come to think of it, my betas dont gulp since the plants took off...EVER...maybe bubble nests are a product of gulping??...whatever the reason (maybe ill design an experiment), im sure both your and my betas are happy...just some thoughts about it since no one else can give me an answer without sounding accusitory.

i wasn't trying to sound accusatory, just trying to make sure i was clear on the information, before i tried to answer anything.
and when you are a new member, how are we supposed to know how experienced or not you are? should we just ignore all the mistakes noobs are making and let their fish die, simply because that wasn't the question that was asked?
at the time of you OP, you had major problems with your levels and so several people commented on that TRYING TO HELP! i do know a little about heavily planted tanks rather than filters, as you should be able to see from the link i posted, but at the start, you should have still been doing much larger/more frequent changes to combat the levels you were experiencing. i am glad your levels have sorted themselves out now and i hope your bettas will be happy in future.
bubblenests are not a side effect of bettas gulping air at the surface, they are a deliberate construction. when an ill betta is hanging at the surface constantly, they sometimes produce a build up of bubbles (usually along the edge of the glass in a line) but this is very noticeably different to a proper bubblenest. unfortunately i don't think anyone is likely to be able to help with your question more than that, as all bettas have very different personalities and behavior patterns and people have had different bettas in exactly the same setups, and had one build like mad, and one not build at all. sometimes they are just a mystery, and we have to go with a best guess answer (which in this case was the high levls of ammonia and nitrite. maybe now the levels are down they will build more... maybe they won't. only time will tell)

please correct your spelling of bettas in future, it may seem like an unimportant point, but it can cause people to mispronounce the name (as in the greek letter beta) when spelt that way and can cause more people to spell it incorrectly in future. i understand that mistakes are easy to make, but you use the wrong spelling consistently, not just an occasional dropped letter while typing. sorry to sound like the spelling police, and i wouldn't comment on any other spelling mistake (unless the mis-spelling gave the context humorous undertones, in which case i might have a bit of a giggle if i wasn't beaten to it) but this is a point which really winds me up and it is the betta forum after all.

 

[loraxchick]

Thanks for all the replies...i am putting this question to bed as i am satisfied...when it comes to behavioral traits in animals there are just too many variables that can not be accounted for unless controlled experiments are done...my guys are healthy and active so im not worried, per se (although that IS in my post description- definately an erronius decision looking back)...just looking for feedback on frequency that OTHER fishies build.
and as far as my spelling goes, i will no longer use "beta"... to limit confusion, i will call them Siamese Fighting Fish, or SFF...this MORE is accurate as there are many BetTTTTTa sp., just so everyone knows what's important...hate to offend with the misspelling (or sheer laziness on my part)...seems quite trivial when looking for advice...again, very offensive people in here and i dont think i like the hostility i have witnessed in the past few days...not from everyone, i DID have some helpful things, even with my levels in the tank and advice which was NOT what i was looking for, but wouldve followed if not for my set up and what i was ultimately trying to achieve and HAVE achieved in the past three days, keeping watchful eyes out for lethargic/sick fish, which that point was missed by a few...i can see limitations in knowledge and just becasue you have a lot of little yellow fishies under your name does not make you an expert...maybe an expert poster/forager on these forums...but getting worked up over spelling? really???
id hate to take other questions elsewhere, as i had a valid question a few weeks back and had truely wonderful responses which validated my instinct/experience with other fish in similar situations...i was looking for reassuring guidance here and found it with no problem...just a noob SFF keeper-not a noob fish keeper....so to THOSE of you, thanks for the HELPFUL posts.
and if anyone needs advice on filterless planted tanks, lemme know, just remember i "clearly dont know what im doing" as one kind reply said!
i hope some people here have half a sense of humor and can appreciate sarcasm, as i feel like now i need to go on the DEFENSIVE for what, REALLY, was a very very simple question. Moot at this point...ill never get a good answer

 

[loraxchick]

"when spelt that way "

and for the record, the past tense of spell is "spelled" not "spelt"...spelt is a grain...as in in you eat it.

 

[bronzecat]

What you have to remember Loraxchick, is that a lot of new fish keepers frequent this forum and if they read a post thats is saying the Ammonia and NitrItes are at 1ppm and nobody questions it, they could be lead to believe that Amm & TrItes are ok.
Also, you are registered as a newbie, so Ibble was only giving you advice about your levels. As a person with a "Bio degree" you should be aware of the harm that ammonia & nitrItes can do to fish. Also, as person with a degree in Bio, you should realise the importance of indentifying the fish by its correct name.

On this forum, the word betta is acknowledged to refer to Betta Splendens. If other members of the Betta species are being talked about it is made clear.

Ibble has certainly got plenty of experience with bettas, and is not the type of person who goes out to make trouble.

Annackbettamoon - If a "newbie" makes a post which includes details of very bad water stats, what are the "regulars" supposed to do? Nothing? That would be good wouldn't it.

I am pretty tollerant of peoples ignorance, but recently even I got fed up with another members refusal to accept advice.

 

[bronzecat]

P.S.

spelt - 2 entries.

1. verb - A past tense and a past participle of spell.

2. noun - A hardy wheat grown mostly in Europe.

 

[Earthling84]

I didn't read through all the posts, really just the initial question. And my response will probably be similar to the others. Plants do NOT provide any mechanical filtration, or chemical filtration, and very little biological filtration(and they mainly take out nitrates/phosphates, not the more harmful ammonia or nitrites)

You need get to some type of biological filtration in that tank. A simple and cheap fix is a a bioplus foam filter... as shown at this link <a href="http/www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=3940" target="_blank">http/www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod...cfm?pcatid=3940</a>

Without some type of biological filtration, you will have not enough benificial bacteria to convert ammonia>nitrites>nitrates. You can do water changes, but this won't take place of a bio filter and your fish will suffer and slowly die.

Ammonia in ANY level is BAD BAD BAD and can kill fish FAST.
Nitrite in ANY level is BAD but not quite as bad as ammonia(but still very bad)
Nitrate is not to bad for fish at low/mid levels but can cause excessive algae growth and can be harmful to fish in high quantities.

 

[loraxchick]

WOW...im sad to see i still only received TWO meaningful replies to my INITIAL QUESTION which simply put (as my two old posts were overly confusing for people): at what frequency do male SFF's (i am now refusing to call them BetTa's now) make bubble nests...case closed this is my question.

Also, to those of you who say you absoultely can not cycle a tank with fish in it or that you NEED a mechanical filter to cycle "as this is where the bacteria live"...i want to share some info

my tank has cycled with out a filter...i have at least two inches of gravel in there and "seeded" it with mature gravel from another tank...the bacteria also live IN THE GRAVEL or other things with lots of surface area and low O2 (hence those little plastic "bioballs" or the other biomedia in the filter....these are loaded with surface area for the bacteria...but the bacteria also live in the gravel...if you have a small tank with a small bioload and CHECK CHECK CHECK your water stats and do APPROPRIATE changes...my tank was set up and seeded and in went the fish...my divider was improperly installed and they got into a fight...IMMEDIATELY took them out, quarantined BOTH FISH and treated w/ melafix and salt.fixed the divider and in a week when i was sure they were showing no sickness, back into the fixed divided tank...and now the plants are growing out nicely...im so happy with the results...as for my "high" ammonia rates, they never got above 1 and then id do a water change...i realize that here think this is torturing my fish but you have to realize how slowly the level rose...like i said i TEST TEST TEST my water for all the usual cycle levels as well as pH,Kh and gH...and ive noticed a few people saying "spiking amonia"...this means a RAPID INTRO of ammonia (hence the "spike")...any rapid change in water chemistry will stress a fish out and that also included going from say 1ppm nh4 to 0!!! this is why a lot of people dont recommend doing 100% water changes...
its more iimportant to have stability in a tank than lots of swings in chem stats...but i do also agree that 1ppm NH4 is pushing it and that's why i do water changes there...usually 30-40% which brings it back around .25 for MANY MANY days.....i have had the SFF's in their tank for over a month and only have done 2 wc's...and that was fairly early on, now that the plants are doing their thing..and plants are the WAY TO GO!!! My tank right now is one of the clearest water ive had, even with a mechanical filter...so dont think its not possible...or harmful...will watch my nitrates now of course, but im confident that my plants will keep them at a reasonable level for a WHILE between future water changes...
but really, im not looking for advice or criticism on my "methods", just wanted to know about bubble nesting...THAT"S ALL I WANTED IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!

 

[bronzecat]

Hi
I;ve never cycled without a filter so cant comment on that. My only concern was that 1ppm of ammonia IS harmfull to fish. Is it not possible to cycle this way without putting fish in, similar to using ammonia to cycle a mechanical filter?

 

[loraxchick]

ok...my tank was IN THE PROCESS of cycling when i added my OP...i had already started to see nitrites (and this was in less than a month..with no filter...some tanks ive had have taken so much longer even with a filter...so dont worry about the tank not cycling...it is cycled as of yesterday...i wanted "high" amonia at the first sign of nitrites which ACCELERATES the growth of the secondary beacteria to convert to NITRATES...Anywho, my fish were never acting abnormally (even after they got into their big battle)...exploring, eating like the little piggies that they are, playful (i play with them EVERYDAY!!! Usually a few minutes several times a day!)...i have never noticed anything different with the exception that they dont make nests like they used to...but im convinced that it is either surface agitation from ALL the O2 from the plants and therefore the bubblenests break apart...or that it is simply a behavioral thing, or coincidence...they do still MAKE them, but really just spend more time exploring around, staring at the plants and snails i REAAAALLLY need to put some pictures up... i think it would put some poeple's mind's at ease...it is quite lovely and the fish are doing great...Torn fins from their fight are growing back FASTTTT!!! and not one ONE, sign of any sort of infection...and they are as playful, if not more so, than ever since the plants took off...they LOVE their tank! (and you'd know if they didnt, they are sooo expressive for fish!)
and as for algae, not one bit yet (ill hold my breath...)

 

[Earthling84]

in a vastly undercrowded tank you can 'get away' with no filter and simply rely on gravel bacteria and plants to help. however, with the low cost of cheap filters, and th easy DIY filters out there, there really is no reason to not run one. There are no cons to running a filter, only benefits. I love your willingness to "try new things" but a filter will be beneficial and a great improvement, I suggest you add one.

If you are 100% against adding a filter, that is ok, but please do check water parameters often and make necessary water changes and so on.

One great type of biological filtration is 'BIO-GLASS" or those ceramic cylinders which you might see. They are heavy(and sink in water). The pack I bought came in a teathered(sp?) bag. They are contained and sink to the bottom. This is a way of adding bio filtration without spending the money on a filter or pump(you can simply place these in the back of your tank, like gravel.

 

[ibbledibble]

Hi
I;ve never cycled without a filter so cant comment on that. My only concern was that 1ppm of ammonia IS harmfull to fish. Is it not possible to cycle this way without putting fish in, similar to using ammonia to cycle a mechanical filter?

i wanted "high" amonia at the first sign of nitrites which ACCELERATES the growth of the secondary beacteria to convert to NITRATES...

i think this is the point that bronzecat was trying to make. we all (or most of us anyway) know a tank will cycle quicker with high levels of ammonia, however high levels of ammonia (even at 1ppm) are harmful to fish. so there are 3 options when cycling a tank.

#1 Fishless cycling:
This method involves adding a source of pure ammonia to the tank, with everything set up in the final configuration, heater and filter(where using) running, but simply no fish. In this method, high levels of ammonia can be used, which results in a reasonably quick cycle, and allows larger amounts of fish to be added in one go. (this is the preferred method by most informed fishkeepers, as it holds no chance of hurting the fish with ammonia poisoning.)

#2 Fish-in cycling, with regular water changes:
In this method, the tank is set up and the fish added. testing is done regularly, and when ammonia and/or nitrite show as being at or above 0.25ppm a large (25-50%) water change is carried out. the fish can still suffer from some distress,(although it is likely to be minimal) but are unlikely to suffer long term damage. This is a very long, slow method of cycling a tank and may take several months.

#3 Fish-in cycling, with minimal water changes:
In this method, the tank is set up, with the filter running, and left that way. small/occasional water changes may be carried out. this is probably the quickest method of cycling, as smaller amounts of ammonia overall are introduced to the tank throughout the cycling period than in method #1, so a smaller colony of bacteria is required to process it. however fish are likely to be in distress and suffer a considerably shortened lifespan due to ammonia poisoning, even if they do not die immediately. (This method is used mainly by new fishkeepers who do not know any better, going on advice from unscrupulous stores.)

you seem to have gone for a mixture of methods 2 and 3 (as although you monitored the levels, you didn't bother with regular water changing.)

i have had the SFF's in their tank for over a month and only have done 2 wc's...and that was fairly early on,

the point i think bronzecat was making, was surely it would have been better to do a fishless cycle with added ammonia, and kept the boys in their vases, with regular (daily?) water changes until the cycle had completed. that way you would have avoided the stress and potential damage caused to your fish by ammonia poisoning.

 

[corey01]

What you have to remember Loraxchick, is that a lot of new fish keepers frequent this forum and if they read a post thats is saying the Ammonia and NitrItes are at 1ppm and nobody questions it, they could be lead to believe that Amm & TrItes are ok.
Also, you are registered as a newbie, so Ibble was only giving you advice about your levels. As a person with a "Bio degree" you should be aware of the harm that ammonia & nitrItes can do to fish. Also, as person with a degree in Bio, you should realise the importance of indentifying the fish by its correct name.

On this forum, the word betta is acknowledged to refer to Betta Splendens. If other members of the Betta species are being talked about it is made clear.

Ibble has certainly got plenty of experience with bettas, and is not the type of person who goes out to make trouble.

Annackbettamoon - If a "newbie" makes a post which includes details of very bad water stats, what are the "regulars" supposed to do? Nothing? That would be good wouldn't it.

I am pretty tollerant of peoples ignorance, but recently even I got fed up with another members refusal to accept advice.

Bronzecat thanks you jst typed everything i was going to type

ok...my tank was IN THE PROCESS of cycling when i added my OP...i had already started to see nitrites (and this was in less than a month..with no filter...some tanks ive had have taken so much longer even with a filter...so dont worry about the tank not cycling...it is cycled as of yesterday...i wanted "high" amonia at the first sign of nitrites which ACCELERATES the growth of the secondary beacteria to convert to NITRATES...Anywho, my fish were never acting abnormally (even after they got into their big battle)...exploring, eating like the little piggies that they are, playful (i play with them EVERYDAY!!! Usually a few minutes several times a day!)...i have never noticed anything different with the exception that they dont make nests like they used to...but im convinced that it is either surface agitation from ALL the O2 from the plants and therefore the bubblenests break apart...or that it is simply a behavioral thing, or coincidence...they do still MAKE them, but really just spend more time exploring around, staring at the plants and snails i REAAAALLLY need to put some pictures up... i think it would put some poeple's mind's at ease...it is quite lovely and the fish are doing great...Torn fins from their fight are growing back FASTTTT!!! and not one ONE, sign of any sort of infection...and they are as playful, if not more so, than ever since the plants took off...they LOVE their tank! (and you'd know if they didnt, they are sooo expressive for fish!)
and as for algae, not one bit yet (ill hold my breath...)

CAN you STOP typing in RANDOM CAPITALS because its REALLY ANNOYING your basically not listenig to any advice your given and just being rude so im not even going to bother trying to help. like Bronzecat said im also sick of newbies attitudes on the forum lately

 

[Earthling84]

be careful how you respond loraxchick, or you may start an all out war.

 

[bronzecat]

Pics would be great Loraxchick

 

[Knoxx]

Maybe someone that knows about Betta conditions for spawning in the wild may help out. Water level changes for some fish trigger spawning. Could this be the case for Bettas{sp}. The constant changes of water level and fresh water being added maybe simulating a rainy season triggering a spawning reaction. In a more stable enviroment could they be happy ,but just awaiting the flooding action to stimulate spawning.

I know absolutely nothing about Bettas I'm just wondering if there might be a trigger affect.