Setting A Tank Up Without Ammonia

[Vancar]

Hi,

I'm looking at keeping fish again after 15 years. While looking for information I find that "fishless cycling" is the way to go when setting up a new tank.

Is there away to setup the tank humanely without using ammonia? I am going to use a Juwel Rekord 600 planted tank, so my first steps would obviously setting the tank up adding the treat water then plants and then.......

Fish I was looking at keeping are

6 neon tetras
6 something else small
2 dwarf gouramis
1 bristle nose pleco

and maybe a couple more small catfish. Would this be ok? or too much?

 

[toshapetriji]

If you accept the need to fishless cycle why do you want to avoid the use of ammonia?

 

[waterdrop]

Same question as above. The daily ammonia dosing is 5 or less parts per *million*, that's a really tiny amount of ammonia. Simple ammonia is the only way to really have control over the process and helps the make the process faster (the two particular species of bacteria you must grow are really, really slow growers.)

Neon tetras are much more likely to live when introduced to a tank that is at least 6 months old. Dwarves and Bristles can be in an initial introduction after a fishless cycle and rasbora heteromorpha are a fantastic smaller fish for an initial introduction (indeed, they are hardier than the traditional zebra danio for this.)

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Vancar]

thanks for the reply WT

 

[N0body Of The Goat]

If you are going down the heavily planted route with a lot of fast growing plants (along with the neccessary nutrient substrate below sand/gravel; a carbon dioxide source; 2W per gallon lighting; daily/weekly fertiliser; fortnightly/monthly supplements), you should head over to the planted section and read about how such setups can be successful without a "fishless cycle."

 

[ian]

^^agree with the above, a tank can be cycled without ammonia. *shock*

 

[waterdrop]

^^this is quite true! A tank can be successfully cycled without ammonia - it can be done with little risk to the fish if enough water changes and daily attention are given the the toxin levels in a carefully planned and executed fish-in cycle. OR, you can do the "silent cycle" variation of the fish-in cycle that Dave has written up nicely over in the planted-tank section, for people interested in getting in to the planted-tank hobby.

I tend to be biased here in the freshwater beginners section with the fishless cycle and the less planted, slightly more beginner community fish oriented setup. I feel this averaged approach is justified by the problems that I see most people having with their first cycle and with their first planted environment. In the cases I observe here (and some of my own experience thrown in) I feel the average case often shows enough mistakes with a first fish-in cycle that the fish get some damage and/or that the first planted attempt sometimes also meets with enough trouble to result in some harm. In other words, I feel that as long as I'm serving as a sort of "scribe" to pass tips from the experienced fishkeepers here on TFF to the newcomers and it gets seen as handing out advice of sorts then I have some responsibility to kind of start out in the "average" position.

So, for better or worse, I end up biased for what I think of as a first 2-year beginner fishless cycled community tank that plays out the "I want a tropical fish tank" wish that most beginners come in with, and yet, for the TFF member, heavily pushes the beginner to begin learning the kinds of sound principles that would enable them later, as experienced hobbyists, to help someone with a correct fish-in cycle or to, themselves, move in to the wonderful planted tank world, but with a solid baseline experience under their belt first.

Any kind of "average" bias like this is a generalization of course and may be less suited to some of the individual newcomers who happen to arrive with a background that puts them farther off the average. There are bound to be re-beginners who have a pretty solid skill with plants for instance, and someone like that is ripe for our planted tank experts and we should help steer them in that direction. The reason I stick with my slight bias though is that I continue to see the majority come in exhibiting the typical problems and most importantly, I still feel that the fishless cycle is still a slam-dunk for fish safety, especially in the non-heavily planted arena.

Wheh, don't know where all that came from! ~~waterdrop~~
ps. I don't know, what does anybody think about taking this sort of stance with our newcomers? I feel if the ones who are giving them a lot of posts are kind of coming from a safe middle place then the power of a forum allows other members to come in with comments that move off the average, so to speak, and help to add more "nuance" for each individual newcomer.

 

[Vancar]

I have yet to go into the plant side, but will probably start off hardy plant here and there. I do want it to be quite heavy on plant with bog wood, so may add some more later ( still to read up on the plant side of it yet). I maybe going with a nutrition base substrate with gravel on top i think, money dependent. If not just a fine gravel so the root have something to hold onto.

I think i read that post of cycling with plant, but to be honest, I am better of with the simplest method when reading it of the web.

and again may thanks for the constructive comments.

 

[waterdrop]

It sounds like a fishless cycle will be better for you then, than a silent cycle, but it sounds like once you've had some time getting used to the habits of keeping a good tank, you'll be ready to learn more about plants.

The members here are great, they'll be here to help with tips usually every day as you go through cycling the first time. If you take it just one step at a time, you'll get it, it mostly just takes patience.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OldMan47]

Let's get right down to it. This is a heavily planted tank.

This is not a heavily planted tank and cannot be used to safely introduce fish without first cycling the tank.

Now that we have a common definition of heavily planted, you need to know that anything less than a heavily planted tank cannot be used for fish without a threat to the fish unless it is first cycled. There should be no doubt in your mind about the idea that you can get away with some kind of half and half situation unless you are willing to do a fish-in cycle. A fish-in cycle can be done with or without plants present by simply checking your chemistry daily and doing the needed water changes to keep your chemistry under control. If you have decided to go in that direction, please read up on fish-in cycling by following the link in my signature area.

 

[Vancar]

think i will be going somewhere in the middle i think.

 

[RadaR]

>75% ground coverage of plants is classed as heavily planted. It's a good idea that the majority are fast growing as well, in order to utilise any ammonia. Of course water changes help prevent ammonia from becoming detectable.

 

[roadmaster]

If person or persons do not feel comfortable with using raw ammonia method then so be it.
Have cycled tanks using a couple three uncooked small raw shrimp,a hand full of snails Fed daily, or simply by placing a pinch of food in the tank each day for ammonia sources.
Borrowing filter media from a friends tank can also be used to greatly speed the process.
I'm a bit put off by the suggestions that only fishless method using raw ammonia is acceptable. Perhaps the person has allergic reactions when near Ammonia,perhaps they don't feel comfortable with handling the chemical out of fear of contact with eyes ,skin,or clothing,perhaps they are too young to messing about with such chemicals.
If one only has knowledge of one particular method for cycling a tank then fine,say so. But to imply that that method is the only safe way to cycle a tank without harm to fishes,is patently false.
If your not familiar with other ways,then fine,say so or don't say anything.
Fishless method can be accomplished with or without Ammonia, and the ammonia method is no quicker than another due to the fact that nobodys water is same as another's, and any number of other variables.

We should all train our efforts on aquiring the ability to present all options to new hobbyist's rather than harping about one.
I'm stepping down from the soap box now, and let the mud fly where it will.

 

[OldMan47]

You are quite right roadmaster. There are a large number of approaches to doing a cycle that will work. The real defining quality of a fishless cycle is that it is conducted with no fish present and requires some source of ammonia, which can be a bottled chemical, a rotting prawn or many other things. A fish-in cycle is performed using fish to produce the ammonia and water changes to keep the levels safe for those same fish.
All other variables are personal preferences. I tend to favor a fishless cycle using bottled ammonia because I do lots of tanks quite often and I have a bottle of ammonia that I can use. I also use a sample of the right bacteria from one of my established tanks to kick start the process. A new tank, for me, means a week to 10 days of adding ammonia daily and verifying that the new tank is processing the ammonia and nitrites well enough before adding in fish. A fishless cycle without that jump start can easily require over 6 weeks to complete and can be quite trying for the fish keeper.