Plants

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you will get restricted growth if you plant in the pots. but i think you are on about plant pots for caves :lol:

Yes nick :good: I would take the plants out and bury them in the sand and special substrate so they could get the nutrients. How much plant substrate stuff would I need to cover the bottom in a fairly okay depth.

Lucy :D
if you know the base of the tank in cm and times them together then divide by 75 and that should give you a pretty good estimate
 
Well I've decided that I'm going to ditch the substrate and just dose daily with easycarbo and TPN+. And I will have anubias, crypts, vallis and mosses like you said. Can I have anchor moss as my carpet? Or does it need high light, co2 etc? If so what else do you recommend as a carpet. I will ahve argos plany sand as the bottom BTW.

LuCy :)
 
As I guess you are discovering, keeping plants is far more difficult to do right than keeping fish. You do not have much $$$ to spend and this exasporates things.

It is quite 'easy' to set up what is called an EI or Estimative Index tank and bung in whatever plants you want into whatever substate you want. The way EI works, in a nutshell, is to just give plants EVERYTHING they need and hey presto they grow like nutters. You give them LOADs of the right kind of lighting (and I mean loads). This is the driving force for massive plant growth and this then means massive nutrient take up needed, so you give it to them: Pressurized CO2 and daily, carefully measured amounts of plant food (fertilizers) dropped straight into the water (this is called 'dosing the water column).

This method as you can see, requires loads of $$$ and a LOT of maintenance, BUT you can basically grow what you want. The EI method is a brain child of an American chap called Tom Barr, aka plantbrain (search him out):

http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=189932

Majority of 'prize winning' tanks use EI, an to be frank, some of these tanks are absolutely staggering:
http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2005...vol=0&id=17
http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2005...vol=0&id=71

For a brilliant example of 'never done it before' to 'staggering set-up' follow the astronomic rise of fellow forum member Dave Spencer's setup here:
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=174628
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=194136

If this is the route you want to go, then let us know. Expect to be spending upwards of £500...! :blink:

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The other end of the scale are what are called 'El Natural', a method founded by a lady called 'Diana Walstad' - she wrote a must-read book called 'Ecology of the Planted Aquarium'. Her idea is to provide a 'natural' environment for both Plants AND fish. Plants readily absorb Ammonia, Ammonium, Nitrite & Nitrates, i.e. fish waste. Fish poop is a great substrate builder too. So the Fish feed the plants, the plants keep the fish happy by gobbling up all the crap! The cycle of life shall we say is balance in an el Natural tank.

These tanks rely on lower lighting set ups -> this therefore minimized rapid nutrient take up by the plants as basically all nutrients came from a well founded PROPER substrate and fish food (that is 'processed' of course by the fish). CO2 should not therefore be a problem espcially if what is called 'ariel' or 'emergent' growth is encouraged: Basically CO2 is a right royal git to get into the water. It is expensive / difficult to produce (either using yeast based fermentation DIY kits, or using bottled, pressurized CO2) and once available, not easy to dissolve into the water (hence diffusers / unsightly CO2 ladders). If the plants are encoraged to grow OUT of the water, hey presto, CO2 freely available to the plants (in the air, as is the case for normal land based plants) and hence no mucking about with CO2 injection.

Creating an 'El natural' setup is NOT easy and is a leap of faith: Minimal water filtration, low / no maitenance - that is to say a 'dirty' tank is encouraged somewhat - no substrate vaccing, reduced choice of plants (those that are OK with lower lighting levels), you need a lot more nounce to create such a set up.

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Personally I have combined the two ideas into a kind of hybrid tank and has been going very well for 1.5 years now, is extremely low cost / low maintenance and long-living fishies. Plant growth is medium - I prune out a handful of greenery every other week or so. Conisdering I rarely do water changes (TBH, I just top up the water) and rarely vac, the substrate remains clean, the water is crystal, the plants grow. See my small pikey little 60L set up here:
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=220341


GL with keeping plants with whatever route you go. We are all here to help if needs be!

Andy
 
Wow your tank is amazing. As said I am just going for the easy plants that don't need high lighting or co2. I will just feed them daily (TPN+, Easycarbo)hopefully it should work out :)
 
Cool. I will say this as a basic starting point for ANY planted tank. Get a GOOD substrate in there. It will be worth it, espcially for a begginer as it is a nutrient (and hence a mistake :rolleyes: ) buffer.

I so lacked $$$ (wife / kids / economy / being welsh / etc etc) that I made my own substrate... based on soil I dug up from the back garden!!!!

God I am such a pikey, but it bloody worked a dream! But then again this is a no brainer if you think about it. Plants are plants, no different to being in my garden, as to in my tank. The MAJOR difference with aquatic gardening is the CO2 restriction, but like I said, there are ways and means....


Andy
 
Please note that I have not looked into commercial substrates for over a year now, so my knowledge will be outdated somewhat:

First off of course is tha delivery of any substrate will be expensive too as it is bulky & heavy.
Secondly, LFS stores always seemed to be inadequate for planted aquaria needs - hell most of them quite happily sell non-aquatic plants as aquatic, so go figure on that. Don't be put off though, do go and browse your LFS / pond shops to see what they have & come back with anything that is available.
Thridly, most substrates will last about a year generically speaking, so expect a yearly revamp.
Final thing to bear in mind is what look are you after? E.g. aquasoil will be brown & granular, some are black, others go under a 'cap' of gravel or sand. (Note, when 'capping' a substate with sand, use normal playsand from Argos! - cheap, cheap!).

3 options then once you've decided WHAT setup you want (EI? / El Natural (low tech)? / Hybrid of both?)

1) Buy a commercial substrate. - cost >£40??
The best substrate is ADA Aquasoil, but is staggeringly expensive stuff. Will turn to mush after a year.
Tourmaline - useless, avoid.
Laterite - consider a substrate additive, not a standalone substrate.
Penac W - Avoid.
Tropica Plant Substrate - good, used as a sub-layer.
CaribSea Eco-Complete Planted & Floramax - one of the best substates.
CaribSea Planted Aquarium Substrate - mixed reports
Red Sea FloraBase - patented formula based on volcanic ash. Will turn to mush after a year.
Tropica Aquacare Plant Substrate - good stuff - consists of clay & sphagnum moss & is thus a long-term nutrient store.
SeaChem Flourite - old fashioned hard clay substrate: use with gravel & after a while it breaks down to form an iron-rich sub. Quite a 'dead' substrate though really and will need water column dosing.
JBL Florapol
JBL Aqua-Basis Plus
TetraComplete / TetraPlant Complete Substrate - good stuff, cap with thin layer of sand or gravel.
Tetratec Complete

You need to find the availabiility / cost / quanity for each of these. Don't forget delivery charges. If you decide on one, get back to us BEFORE bunging into the tank.

2) Make your own using commercial stuff from a garden center - cost, less than £30??
Garden peat, Spagnum moss peat, worm manure, pinch of ferts, or
Sphagnum Peat Moss, Garden Peat, mulm, pinch of ferts.

3) Insane to most, make your own! - cost, less than £10
Only for the brave and takes a long time. Basically, dig up some soil, pick out bits / creatures and condition it (to leech out ammonia) in water for about 4 to 5 WEEKS, and then mix it with gravel / mulm / tank water / peat / leonardite. Cap with gravel. This is my forumla that is in my tank.

Don't worry about any of the 'ingredients' yet.. the same 'pinch of ferts' will be that used as fertilizer for 'dosing the water column' for the plants to maintain their growth, so cost not included. Q) what are the dimensions of your tank.

Andy

PS, that's just for the bloody substrate! But get it right and it will pay dividends.
 
Okay I'm going to look in my LFS first. Then if they don't have what I want their I will probably order off the internet as I can't be bothered to make my own :shifty:

The substrate

^ How much of the bottom of my tank will this cover. Only £10! My tank is 5 foot by something, it is not in my possession yet - so I don't know the dimnesions.

Lucy :)

P.S How long would that substrate last, also I would put my argos playsand over the top.
 
Yep, good stuff that, but don't cap it with play sand though. 2-3mm sized gravel is THE best thing to cap a substrate with. Sand is too dense IMO, it will not allow any goodness (read fish poo here) to filter down into the substrate where the roots can start munching. This is just MY opinon, many, many people use sand quite happily.

5ft long, lets assume 2ft wide, i.e. 61cm by 152cm. This substrate is only 1cm deep, so that's 9272cm cubed, or 9.3Lites of substrate. In other words, you'll need to by 4 bags of that substrate at a whopping cost of £40, not including delivery charges for 10Kgs of the stuff (guess). Yikes.. :blink: Well, to me that's expensive.

Look, don't be put off my making your own using stuff from a garden centre... If you do happen to pop into one on your travels, look for (don't buy anything yet of course), just see if available / cost:

John Innes Potting Compost #2
Sphagnum peat Moss
Vermiculite.
Worm Manure.
Mulm?? Well get that for free - your filters are full of it!

You make your own by just mixing it all together. It's safe too. I bet that little lot will add up to less than a tenner. If you read about the substrate in your link it even says it's made from clay & sphagnum!

Andy

*edit* I could find little info on how long it lasts but it appears to be very similar to AquaSoil and the like so assume 1 to 1.5 years ish
 
Ah... I see from you're profile you're what, 14?

If I was your dad I'd think what a wonderful thing my daughter wants to get into, what a great way of learning about ecologies. OK, so you'll get your paws dirty and the cost like I said will be less than a tenner so.. so what? What's the beef there?

You'll have the great knowledge that hey, I made that substrate and the plants grow because I was hands on enough to mix my own. How cool is that (well, it's cool to me, I made my own: I didn't just take the slack route and simply spend $$$ on a ready made). And TBH, £40 for a commercial substrate for that size of tank is... cheap in comparison! You did very quickly find the best for lest there. For that size tank, I see people quite happily bunging in 100 quids worth of AquaSoil withiout battering an eyelid! Crazy crazy IMO.

Would your dad be worried that in making your own mix, that it would harm the fish? I would not argue with him there, it is a worry, but the products I've mentioned are 'pure' and can be conditioned if you have Ammonia test kits and water.

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OK, you also have the route of just using simple old 'dead' playsand and daily dose the water column using ferts and not bother with a substrate. Many, many people do this successfully and is not difficult to do. Like mentioned, you DON'T HAVE to have a 'good' substrate as I'm advocating. Bear in mind though what I said, it will help you greatly... also, what if you go on holiday & the such like....

These are just thoughts and advice: The intentension is not to confuse but to help of course, so take everything with a pinch of salt! :rolleyes:

Andy
 

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