Ph Swings/nitrates & Sensitive Fish

[mark4785]

This topic contains a range of questions/issues that don't fit nicely into any one topic area


Before I start to describe the problem, I thought it would be a better idea to give you a good reason for why I'm anxious and scared about these PH swings. If you've read any of my other tropical fish themed posts you will know that as a novice fish keeper I have decided to stock my aquarium with a delicate fish named the German Blue Ram (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi). I have a male and female pair within the aquarium and based on multiple sources, I've been told that my water must contain no more than 20 ppm nitrates and the PH must not go above 7.4 as they are sensitive to such water parameter build-ups. The aquarium also contains 5 Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish and 5 Black Neon Tetra.

I also have some aquarium plants within the aquarium. Two are slow growers named Anubias and Cryptocoryne. They both appear to be growing well but small brown blotches are starting to appear on some of the leaves on both of the plants. What is causing this and how do I prevent it from happening? Due to the sensitive Rams, I really CANNOT afford to have plants degenerating in the water and adding to the waste load. I have attached numerous photos below showing these brown circles on the leaves.

Anubias 01:

Anubias 02:

Cryptocoryne 01:

Each plant has one third of a 'Tetra Plant Crypto' plant fertilizer tablet installed right next to their roots and I ocassionally dose the aquarium with 'Nutrafin Plant Gro' which is iron enriched. Each plant receives about 6 hours of 2 x 24W T5 light between 9pm and 3am. Despite the light and the dosing of micro/macro nutrients the plants look like they are degenerating very slowly by showing those black blobs on their leafs; seems a bit bloody contradictory if you ask me! I'm a bit puzzled as to why their health is suffering although I do have an hunch that the airstone is stopping (to some degree) the plant leaf from taking in C02. Should I be putting more c02 into the aquarium or should I just configure the airstone to produce a lesser amount of bubbles/oxygen?


The Problem

Despite having a Carbonate hardness level of 6dH, it appears this isn't enough to stabilize the PH properly. From the 10/7/10 to the 16/7/10 my PH was 7.4. On the 18/7/10 it swung to 8.0 which is too alkaline for German Blue Rams. Clinically, they went more quiet at feeding time, the female spat out it's food. I did a 50% water change and the PH level dropped back to about 7.4. The big water change was needed as my nitrate level reached 20ppm and I needed to reduce this to prevent additional stress. After the water change, the male Ram began to itch itself on the side of rocks as though it's skin was being irritated. The other fish appeared to be unaffected.

I personally believe that some source of ammonia is coming from my aquarium plants. Ammonia, once processed into nitrite, highers the PH level. Now, if a KH level of 6dH doesn't prevent PH swings and consequently stress on Blue Rams, what course of action must I take to prevent a PH swing? During water changes, should I add a PH stabilizer such as this one which supposedly stabilizes the PH at 7.0?

Feeding

Bearing in mind my stocking level and the need to keep a steady PH and nitrate level, what feeding regime is most appropriate for a 120 litre aquarium?


I think I have covered all the issues that are currently on my mind. If I have missed something I will modify the post ASAP. I look forward to any responses as always.


Thank you.

Mark.

 

[PDSimon]

Have you tried scraping the brown stuff of the plants? Algae tends to grow on slow growing plants like anubias becuase they're so still.

Not to sure about the whole pH subject, nor do I agree as my KH is 3 and i have no problems with pH swings. The processing of ammonia would more likely lower the pH than higher it imo... I was unsure when adding bolivian rams because I wanted to keep my pH around 6.5 for them and nitrates less than 20 however, my pH from tap was 7.5. Bare in mind there is bogwood in my tank, over the course of a few weeks it dropped to about 6.4 and never swings.

 

[mark4785]

Have you tried scraping the brown stuff of the plants? Algae tends to grow on slow growing plants like anubias becuase they're so still.

Not to sure about the whole pH subject, nor do I agree as my KH is 3 and i have no problems with pH swings. The processing of ammonia would more likely lower the pH than higher it imo... I was unsure when adding bolivian rams because I wanted to keep my pH around 6.5 for them and nitrates less than 20 however, my pH from tap was 7.5. Bare in mind there is bogwood in my tank, over the course of a few weeks it dropped to about 6.4 and never swings.

Hey PDSimon, hope you had a good holiday

I do have a piece of bog wood but I was afraid to put it into the aquarium as I thought it would change the PH level immediately. If I put it in, are you saying it will take a few weeks to bring the PH down to 6.4? The piece is like 20cm long.

My female bolivian ram is losing it's colour and the male is scratching itself on the sand every now and again. I'm a bit puzzled as to what's making them react like this. Would changing the PH from 8.0 to 7.4 in a matter of minutes cause them to behave like this? Does anybody know?

The leaves themselves appear to be brown. It doesn't look like anything is attached.

Mark.

 

[PDSimon]

Cheers, I did indeed

Nah its quite gradual the change that bogwood makes as it slowly realses more tannins.

I'm not saying it would bring it down at all, it may not do anything. I'm just saying my experience of it, realistically there are so many different factors such as that the wood can vary, your KH is different, your waterchanges will be different etc

The bogwood wouldn't cause the pH to crash but it MAY cause it to go down but like I said it might not do anything to the water chemistry.

Changing the pH affects the fish more than the actual pH. If it has gone from 8 to 7.4 in a few minutes it will certainly affect them a lot. I'm not sure how this has happened at all hopefully someone can help you with this. I assume you havn't got any rock in there? Certain rocks which are infact quite a lot of rocks raise the pH.


try giving the leaves a scrape with your nail, its quite normal to get some things to die sometimes anyway. My crypts have a couple of brown patches on and have done for weeks... they're still growing new leaves. the anubias on the other hand looks like it might be dieing... have you buried the rhizome too much?

 

[mark4785]

Cheers, I did indeed

Nah its quite gradual the change that bogwood makes as it slowly realses more tannins.

I'm not saying it would bring it down at all, it may not do anything. I'm just saying my experience of it, realistically there are so many different factors such as that the wood can vary, your KH is different, your waterchanges will be different etc

The bogwood wouldn't cause the pH to crash but it MAY cause it to go down but like I said it might not do anything to the water chemistry.

Changing the pH affects the fish more than the actual pH. If it has gone from 8 to 7.4 in a few minutes it will certainly affect them a lot. I'm not sure how this has happened at all hopefully someone can help you with this. I assume you havn't got any rock in there? Certain rocks which are infact quite a lot of rocks raise the pH.


try giving the leaves a scrape with your nail, its quite normal to get some things to die sometimes anyway. My crypts have a couple of brown patches on and have done for weeks... they're still growing new leaves. the anubias on the other hand looks like it might be dieing... have you buried the rhizome too much?

Hi,

Well the 50% water change brought about the PH drop from 8.0 to 7.4.

I wasn't aware the Rhizome needed to be above surface, I'll go and correct that in a moment!

 

[PDSimon]

Yeah the rhizome of anubias, java ferns etc need to be above the surface otherwise they will rot and the plant will die.

Are you totally certain you did the test right? (there are no rocks in there right?)

 

[ian]

the brown on the leaves are Diatoms, quite common on Anubias as they are so slow growing. High light and small ammonia spikes cause this. Ammonia spikes that arn't seen on test kits. The leaves arn't dying.

 

[mark4785]

Yeah the rhizome of anubias, java ferns etc need to be above the surface otherwise they will rot and the plant will die.

Are you totally certain you did the test right? (there are no rocks in there right?)

Yes definitely, the PH was 8.0 at 5:25pm today. By 5:40pm the PH was 7.4 after conducting a 50% water change. The roots coming out of the rhizome are really small, if I tried to get them all under the substrate the rhizome would be under the substrate too. Can some roots remain above the substrate?

edit: tried to move the brown blotches on the leaves with my finger; they won't move so they must be a part of the leaf.

the brown on the leaves are Diatoms, quite common on Anubias as they are so slow growing. High light and small ammonia spikes cause this. Ammonia spikes that arn't seen on test kits. The leaves arn't dying.

Are those kind of ammonia spikes harmless to plants and fish? How should I remove the Diatoms? I understand it's a form of algae so should I consider anti-algae treatment?

 

[mark4785]

Tried to remove some of those diatoms again and they won't budge . I guess the plants going to die now!?

 

[PDSimon]

Ian is right about the diatoms, i on the otherhand no nothing about them and i'm not sure if you can take them off!

More importantly, the GBRs won't last long at all with fluctuations like that so I hope someone else can explain and help why thats going on

 

[OldMan47]

Ammonia spikes are not at all harmless to fish.
The usual process for growing java fern or Anubias is to tie it to an ornament or maybe some bog wood and leave all or most of the root above the gravel. It is a bit unusual to see the pH in any system rise over time. More often we are battling a drop in pH over time. That would be the result of any build in nitrates. A pH change is not important as long as the mineral content of your water doesn't change much except that it can change the toxicity of various poisons in the water. Ammonia in very low pH situations is almost harmless but it takes a very high pH to render nitrites almost harmless. You really can't win by merely changing the pH and must instead work to eliminate the content of both of those poisons.

 

[mark4785]

Ammonia spikes are not at all harmless to fish.
The usual process for growing java fern or Anubias is to tie it to an ornament or maybe some bog wood and leave all or most of the root above the gravel. It is a bit unusual to see the pH in any system rise over time. More often we are battling a drop in pH over time. That would be the result of any build in nitrates. A pH change is not important as long as the mineral content of your water doesn't change much except that it can change the toxicity of various poisons in the water. Ammonia in very low pH situations is almost harmless but it takes a very high pH to render nitrites almost harmless. You really can't win by merely changing the pH and must instead work to eliminate the content of both of those poisons.

Well my ammonia and nitrite levels are consistently zero. I was asking whether the ammonia spikes that are non-detectable using a water testing kit are harmful as described by Ianho earlier in this topic.

I'd just like to repeat what PDSimon has said. I'd really appreciate some information on how to prevent big PH swings and avoiding alkaline water any higher than 7.4. The GBR's I have need a water PH between 6.5 - 7.5. My water raised itself to 8.0 today and only a 50% water change got it back to the recommended level of 7.4. I obviously can't rely on massive water changes to keep the PH within the recommended range. One GBR has lost its colour and the other one ocassionally itches itself and I put this down to the PH swing from 7.4 to 8.0 and the swing back to 7.4 from 8.0 after the water change I conducted. If I have to keep doing water changes to control my PH in this way the GBR will end up dead..

Should I try bog wood or some sort of product to keep the PH at around 6.5?

 

[mark4785]

Hypothetically, I was thinking that this would be a good way of stabilizing the PH:

1. Add slight amount of Microbe lift 7.0 PH buffer to water to lower PH gradually.
2. Conduct twice weekly 20% water changes.
3. Re-fill the aquarium with dechlorinated water and Microbe lift 7.0 PH buffer readily disolved in the water

In doing the water changes this frequently and in this way, I'm able to top up the KH and GH (naturally found in the tap water) and the Microbe lift PH buffer will be present in all water that leaves or goes into the aquarium so there won't be any shifts in PH when I conduct water changes.

Would this be an ideal way of keeping my PH stable? My KH isn't doing what its supposed to (keep the PH at a particular level) so I need to think of something!

 

[OldMan47]

Frequent water changes are a possible cure for many water issues. Using additives to control pH is almost never a good idea. Fish that are reputed to require a low pH are often nothing but fish that need a low concentration of minerals in their water. By adding pH buffers, you are increasing, not decreasing, the mineral content.
There is no doubt that pH buffers can work to control the pH, that is simple chemistry. The negative effect comes from what people know about fish needs, not from the pH change itself. Most older information about any fish's needs focuses on the temperature, pH and hardness of that fish's natural waters. Those are things that have been easy to measure for ages. What that information does not mention is things like mineral content although that is perhaps the most important thing to determine. Fish that are not euryhaline, need a specific band of water mineral content. Anything in the band will work for them and water outside the band will cause longer term imbalances in the fish. Over the years, a huge amount of information about how to move pH and hardness has been developed in this hobby. The problem is that the focus is wrong, not that the methods don't work.