Ph Of 6.0. Is This Ok Long Term For Goldfish?

[Assaye]

Waterdrop is doing an amazing job so I just wanted to say that you always really impress me, greengoddess! You are taking the welfare of your fish seriously and always keen to learn.

Have a hug *hugs*

 

[greengoddess]

Thanks drobbyb, I've already read the excelent article in your signature and understand most of it. It's really good advice for newbies like me.


Hi Assaye, thanks for the hug. I really do want the best for my two new little friends. Money is no object to make them happy. I just need to learn as much as possible as quickly as possible. New 240 litre tank is in the very early stages (it arrived last week but had a broken corener so a new one is coming this week hopefully).

 

[waterdrop]

Yeah, definately one of the things that makes your thread more interesting to us GG is that 95% of the time when newcomers come in with goldfish in the mix it is a flag that they will either not be serious about the hobby or will get rid of them and switch to Trops only. You are the very rare exception! ( was thinking the other day that this is a fun hobby for "dads" because it allows us to branch out from the one thing allowed in our lives - namely, dishwashing!) WD

 

[greengoddess]

Yeah, definately one of the things that makes your thread more interesting to us GG is that 95% of the time when newcomers come in with goldfish in the mix it is a flag that they will either not be serious about the hobby or will get rid of them and switch to Trops only. You are the very rare exception! (

was thinking the other day that this is a fun hobby for "dads" because it allows us to branch out from the one thing allowed in our lives - namely, dishwashing!) WD

Dishwashing? I don't know the meaning of the word. That's what wives and dishwashers are for

To be perfectly honest, if I were to start out in fishkeeping I wouldn't get goldfish at all now that I know the pitfalls. These little ones were a gift and, just like babies, you get what you get and you can't just take them back to the shop (well, I certainly couldn't). I've warmed to the thought of getting a large fish tank and I'm looking forward to it now. This hobby won't just be a flash in the pan... not when the lives of creatures are concerned. If I do get bored of the hobby (God forbid) then you can be sure that they will still be looked after well. They're family members now. I must have spent £500 on them so far so it's also in my bank manager's interests for the fish to be happy.

 

[waterdrop]

One benefit of large fish (goldfish included) in a large tank is that there will be moments, perhaps in an evening when it happens to be the main light in the room and you happen to be across the room from it, when you will realize it really enhances your enjoyment of your environment in the house... but that's one of the main things this is all about, right?

~~waterdrop~~

 

[greengoddess]

Yes, I am looking forward to watching my two small fish swimming around in a huge new tank. Just need to get this hardness/pH situation sorted out.

 

[greengoddess]

OK, I have a major update to my water situation and it's not very good.

I received my GH/KH testing kit today and here's the results:

Current water in my 25 ltr tank housing two fancy goldfish

General Hardness = 60mg/L (equal to 3.36 dH)
Carbonate Hardness = 20mg/L (equal to 1.12 dH)

Tap Water

General Hardness = 20mg/L (equal to 1.12 dH)
Carbonate Hardness = 10mg/L (equal to 0.56 dH)


According to my Nutrafin testing kit, my tank water GH is bordering between "soft" and "slightly hard" and the KH is bordering between "needing adjustment" and being classed as "suitable for fish that like acidic conditions."

According to the test kit, my tap water GH is "very soft" and the KH "requires adjusting with an appropriate buffer".



So, given that my pH is 6.0 in the tank and the same out of the tap, would it now be prudent to seriously consider using crushed coral in my new 240 litre aquarium? I'm still a newbie but these hardness results look dreadful after taking in all the kind advice I've received on here.

 

[waterdrop]

Wow! Well well! Maybe this is actually good news! Its so extreme that you have even less room to waver around like I do. Your case is really stronger for going ahead and taking action. We can wait for some more opinions but this begins to make me think you are the perfect candidate for a bag of crushed coral in the filter and learning how to maintain that.

Basically its always good to start with only a small portion of a palm-full of the stuff. It can take up to two weeks for it to show what its going to do so you have to be prepared to be patient (that of course is why its the method of choice, because its slow!) Crushed coral is actually usually roughly broken (large recognizable chunks) seashells and coral pieces. I found my local PetSmart selling a big clear plastic bag of it from some place in Florida. Its pretty cheap as I recall. Its been pre-washed (why you buy) but you still rinse as with all this kind of stuff. The maintenance is that you must take it out during filter cleans and try to figure out how to get it cleaned up - if it gets to covered with stuff it can't dissolve. We'll need to consult the Robby article again to remind ourselves of the safety gap we want to be aware of in terms of KH/pH numbers and water changes.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[greengoddess]

Hi Waterdrop,

Thanks again for your help. I'm pleased you're here to advise.

OK, let's not beat around the bush, my tap water situation is fairly dire (that's obvious, even to a newbie like me). So raising the KH is almost certainly in order. Failure to do so may make looking after my fish even harder (and more traumatic) than simply keeping a stable pH/KH anyway. So let's do this.

Adding and maintaining the function of crushed coral seems easy enough. What worries me most are the water changes. Once the crushed coral has taken effect and has increased the pH/KH, if I were to do a large water change for one reason or another (50% for example) then this will obviously drastically alter the pH and KH of the overall tank water immediately. That will stress the fish. So, am I right in saying that smaller and more frequent water changes are in order? I have re-read the Robby article and I understand that I should always try and keep the pH within a bracket of 0.5. So if I eventually get the pH stable at say 7.0 (using coral), I would need to aim to do a water change before the pH exceeds 7.5, correct? If so, I can manage to do that. It will take a while to work out the frequency and quantity of water changes but, after that, I should be able to get into some sort of routine.

Now, my BIG question... if I have some sort of future emergency and need to change a large amount of water (>=50%), is there any way I can treat the incoming new water to get the correct pH/KH before I add it to the tank? I assume that would be the best way to do things to avoid stressing the fish.

 

[OldMan47]

I'm afraid that WD is 100% correct. The GH of about 1 degree and KH of only about 1/2 degree is far too soft for anything but Amazon river fish. Since most of us keep less restricted tank stockings, we would each raise that mineral content by a fair bit. If your intention is to limit yourself to the Amazon biotope, you are ready to start adding fish. No cycle can survive in the extreme water conditions that an Amazon biotope would pose. With very low pH values, the fish can actually tolerate rather high ammonia levels that we usually think of as deadly to our fish. A pH of less than about 6 and ammonia as high as 2 ppm can actually be tolerated if you are willing to do the water changes it would take to keep the values that low. For most of us, the use of crushed coral or crushed shells gives us harder but more stable water with a pH over 7.0 where ammonia anywhere near those levels would be deadly. If you choose to go with raised mineral content and pH, the thread that WD helped author is a good reference. That thread can be reached by a link in my signature called pH Problems.

 

[greengoddess]

Thanks Old Man,

There'll be no Amazonian fish in my tank. Two fancy goldfish so far with the possibility of adding some white cloud mountain minnows in the future.

I ordered a bag of Florida crushed coral last night and will be adding a small amount as soon as it arrives. I appreciate that my water here is very poor and that I obviously need to do something about it. I'm learning fast

 

[waterdrop]

Robby's pH bracket of .5 may be an area we could examine. I seem to remember a few other fishkeepers questioning whether that was a little too conservative but I have not built up an opinion yet myself. It may be that the pH variability that can be tolerated varies by species (hard to believe it wouldn't!) Speedier and larger changes that might kill a neon might not have much effect on a goldfish, but this is not data that one ever sees listed much in my experience. Writeups of breeding experiences are usually where things get the most detailed.

Anyway, you have jumped right to the topic that deserves the most investigation and discussion -- I don't know the answers (re the above topic).

To comment on your other question about the situation where you would need an emergency large water change, one idea that comes to my mind is that perhaps in anticipation of that case you'd be sure to have your GH/KH kit non-expired and some baking soda on hand. You could use baking soda to doctor up the tap water and test it and cut it with more tap water until you matched your tank water hardness within .5 and then there would not be such a mineral shock with the large water change. Baking soda (bicarb) is certainly not the method of choice with fish in the tank because its fast but done in the manner discussed it would serve well for the emergency situation I would think.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[greengoddess]

Thanks again Waterdrop,

Yes, I was thinking about using baking soda to treat the water before adding it to the tank (in a large water change emergency) but wasn't sure if that was an acceptable method. So that's another product to go on my shopping list. I have done a bit of Googling this morning and I came across another expert opinion on the maximum pH fluctuation. His opinion was a maximum fluctuation of 1.2pH but, unfortunately, that was not specific to any fish type. From what I've learned in the last week or so, goldfish seem to be quite tough little cookies when it comes to pH variation so I am hoping that if I can get my new tank to 7.5pH and maintain that within a bracket of 1.0 (but ideally 0.5) then the little fellows should be happy. If my logic serves me correctly then I assume that the pH/KH in a large 240 litre tank will be easier to control compared to my current 25 litre tank, especially when my two fish are young and small.

 

[waterdrop]

Oh yes, once you get it there (can be slower of course) then a larger water body is more stable and easier to maintain. WD

 

[greengoddess]

Oh yes, once you get it there (can be slower of course) then a larger water body is more stable and easier to maintain. WD

Well, I think that's all I need to know (for now) about my pH/KH situation. You have been an enormous help, I cannot thank you enough. I really appreciate the time you have taken to advise me. The new tank (hopefully undamaged this time) is arriving tomorrow and I am looking forward to getting it set up and my fishless cycle started. I suppose I may as well throw in some baking soda from day one to get the pH up to 7.5. The crushed coral can keep it topped up after that. Meanwhile I'll put some coral in my 25 litre tank so that the fish can start slowly getting used to a higher pH/KH level and be ready for their new 240 litre home

So, thanks again Waterdrop! I'm sure I'll be back on here in a matter of days with more questions to do with fishless cycling