Ph Meters - Worth It?

[CletePurcel]

Hi

I am setting up a tropical tank and went to the shop today to buy plants. I took a sample of water and they said the pH was way too high at 8.5. They sold me some 'pH down' solution which I have now added. They also told me that the strips I use to test pH are not very accurate (I tested the pH and it looked OK).

I am now wondering whether to get a pH meter or whether to buy some liquid test solution. Is it worth investing in a pH meter for about £20? A liquid test kit costs about £5 but is it accurate?

Thanks.

 

[craig855s]

liquid test kits are accurate yes, go up in .2s. However with your PH you will need the High range PH test kit(low range test kit only indicates up to 7.6 or something so 8.5 would be unreadable and untrustworthy.

Cant comment on a PH meter... But it sounds like a handy thing to have for some.. My tapwater PH is over 8. but I use RO water with remineralizing powder in it

 

[Tolak]

A liquid test is accurate enough, what species are you keeping? Generally tap water with a higher pH is harder, hardness stabilizes pH. If this is the case you may be able to lower your pH short term, it will generally rebound to the previous pH. These pH swings are stressful for fish, more so than a pH outside of their suggested range.

Hardness is dissolved minerals in your water, adding more substances to dissolve in the water does not decrease hardness, or total dissolved solids. All these come into play when trying to adjust water parameters, and must be taken into consideration.

Many species will acclimate to a wide range of pH values, and some, such as Rift Lake cichlids or many livebearers will thrive in harder water with a higher pH. I would find out the hardness of your water before trying to adjust the pH, as the only reliable and safe way to adjust pH is to start with ro water.

 

[CletePurcel]

A liquid test is accurate enough, what species are you keeping? Generally tap water with a higher pH is harder, hardness stabilizes pH. If this is the case you may be able to lower your pH short term, it will generally rebound to the previous pH. These pH swings are stressful for fish, more so than a pH outside of their suggested range.

Hardness is dissolved minerals in your water, adding more substances to dissolve in the water does not decrease hardness, or total dissolved solids. All these come into play when trying to adjust water parameters, and must be taken into consideration.

Many species will acclimate to a wide range of pH values, and some, such as Rift Lake cichlids or many livebearers will thrive in harder water with a higher pH. I would find out the hardness of your water before trying to adjust the pH, as the only reliable and safe way to adjust pH is to start with ro water.

Thanks for the replies. I have not bought any fish yet and the aquarium is empty apart from substrate, heater and filter. The strange thing is that I have 2 tanks (one for my daughter's goldfish) and both use the same tapwater. The goldfish tank is OK according to the shop, but the new tank is pH 8.5. They wouldn't sell me any plants or fish until I get the pH down.

 

[Tolak]

Either you have something in the new tank bringing the pH up, perhaps the substrate, or lowering it in the other tank, such as driftwood. Best bet is to check the pH of your tap water, I'd also test the hardness.

What method of cycling are you using for the new tank? What's the sise, stocking and mantenance routine on the existing tank?

A shop that tests pH without testing hardness then sells additives to lower the pH has to be questioned. I could see steering you towards species that are more commonly found in water with a higher pH, but there is no such thing as the right pH for all species.

 

[CletePurcel]

Either you have something in the new tank bringing the pH up, perhaps the substrate, or lowering it in the other tank, such as driftwood. Best bet is to check the pH of your tap water, I'd also test the hardness.

What method of cycling are you using for the new tank? What's the sise, stocking and mantenance routine on the existing tank?

A shop that tests pH without testing hardness then sells additives to lower the pH has to be questioned. I could see steering you towards species that are more commonly found in water with a higher pH, but there is no such thing as the right pH for all species.

Thanks, Tolak. The shop did do other tests and said everything else was OK except the pH. They didn't say what it should be, just that it was too high.

The new tank is 100 litres, and has a Fluval U2 filter ( link )

Features:

- For aquariums from 45 L to 110 L
- 3 way flow control with adjustable output
- 2 foam pads, 2 poly/carbon cartridges
- 40 g Bio-Max

It has been going for about a week. I have been using dechlorinated tapwater and using Nutrafin Cycle aquarium supplement
( link )

The other tank has been going about a month and is only a small 14 litre tank with 2 fish. I did more or less the same type of treatment on the small tank, but don't get the high pH. The only major difference is the substrate. I do a 20% water change every week.

Sorry if this is not enough information. I am pretty new to all this.

 

[Tolak]

We generally like to see numbers here, OK to some shops is not actually OK, too high depends on what the stock is where pH is concerned.

I would look at the links to various topics for new fishkeepers found here. Cycling products in a bottle are in nearly all cases a waste of money, I'd have a look at the various cycling topics found in that link.

A 14 liter tank is way too small for any goldfish, after a month I doubt it is cycled, and I do have to question what your shop thinks is OK based on that. The waste fish produce will drop the pH in a tank, especially in a cycling tank, which may be why the pH in the 14 liter tank is what your shop considers OK.

Not to worry, we deal with folks who get iffy information from shops all the time. In many ways shops are more of a supplier of products than a dispenser of long term fish care advice, in order to make a living it often has to be this way. Their time is often consumed with the business end, any research is generally oriented towards marketing. This often gains them criticism, but like everyone else they have to put a roof over their heads & food on the table.

If you have them test the water again have them write down the numbers for kH & gH in the new tank, as well as ammonia, nitrite and nitrate in the 14 liter tank. This will give us a better idea as to what is going on with both, and what direction to head.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yeah a good quality liquid test kit will be plenty good enough for you, we have a ph meter which we found to be convenient when running a marine tank but it's pretty much overkill for most freshwater set up's as most of the fish are not sensitive enough to pH to need to do continuous monitoring.

 

[CletePurcel]

We generally like to see numbers here, OK to some shops is not actually OK, too high depends on what the stock is where pH is concerned.

I would look at the links to various topics for new fishkeepers found here. Cycling products in a bottle are in nearly all cases a waste of money, I'd have a look at the various cycling topics found in that link.

A 14 liter tank is way too small for any goldfish, after a month I doubt it is cycled, and I do have to question what your shop thinks is OK based on that. The waste fish produce will drop the pH in a tank, especially in a cycling tank, which may be why the pH in the 14 liter tank is what your shop considers OK.

Not to worry, we deal with folks who get iffy information from shops all the time. In many ways shops are more of a supplier of products than a dispenser of long term fish care advice, in order to make a living it often has to be this way. Their time is often consumed with the business end, any research is generally oriented towards marketing. This often gains them criticism, but like everyone else they have to put a roof over their heads & food on the table.

If you have them test the water again have them write down the numbers for kH & gH in the new tank, as well as ammonia, nitrite and nitrate in the 14 liter tank. This will give us a better idea as to what is going on with both, and what direction to head.

Thanks everyone for your replies and your patience.

I have just tested the two tanks with my test strips and NH3 liquid test kit.

These are the numbers:
Goldfish tank (2 small fish totally about 4 inches; 14 litre)
NO3 100
NO2 1
GH 16
KH inbetween 3-6 (can't tell for sure)
pH 7.6
CL2 0
NH3 0

My new empty tank (after treatment with the pH down I was sold. 100 litre):
NO3 25
NO2 0
GH 16
KH 3
pH 7.2
CL2 0
NH3 0

Hope this is helpful although I obviously can't vouch for the accuracy of the kits.

I have been reading about Nutrafin Cycle and it generally gets bad reviews. If I stop using it what would my best strategy be to get the tanks cycling without it? The shop sells tanks with Nutrafin Cycle and tells you to use it for a week and then come back for your fish. I am now assuming this is not good advice. Perhaps I should look for another supplier?

Thanks again.

 

[craig855s]

use liquid ammonia dosing to cycle the tank, read the sticky topic on how to do it, it can be bought from boots

 

[OldMan47]

Let's assume that your KH and GH numbers are in terms of german degrees. In that case, your numbers on the first tank are showing a situation that requires immediate intervention id =n the form of huge water changes to reduce NO2 to less than 0.25 ppm of nitrites. The test results of the other tank show a relatively low value of GH, KH, and chemical poisons that require no action yet. Those same results could change quickly if you ever added some fish to your tanks.
Nutrafin Cycle is no worse than many other products that state that that they can help your fish-in cycle to proceed. Unfortunately we have no evidence whatsoever here that any of the instant cycle products work at all. That means that a tank that s nominally ready using the instant cycling ability of almost any cycling product are little more than a fiction of the manufacturer. On the other hand, the most common situation encountered is that a tank subjected to one of those instant cycle products shows about the same level of bacterial development as one that has seen nothing beyond naturally occurring levels of ammonia and nitrites. That is not to say that any tank will not develop using one of those many products but that it will seldom show more development than a cycle without the product present.