Ph Going Crazy

[LionessN3cubs]

:::shrug:::: after cycling my tank last year, I stocked with 3 platys and 2 mollies. The platys had over 30 babies. Less than a year later all of my fish are dead, including the fry, and every single fish became ill looking right after water change, and was lost within 2 days at most. I had forgotten about the PH/KH issue that I have, therefore I did nothing about it....I wont be convinced that I shouldnt be worried about fixing the PH issue after losing so many fish with a known PH issue.

water out of my tap is 7 with 0 KH
dechlorinator raises it to 7.6
ph in the tank without anything done to KH drops to 6.0 or less

Adding water during water changes hike the PH back up suddenly, killed the fish.


A couple things that bear thinking about before you decide that people worrying about their PH are absurd.

First of all, MY tank is only 10 gallons...therefore changes make a bigger difference. Add 5mls of ammonia to Lake tahoe, and it wont make a difference. Add 5mls to a baby pool..there's gonna be hell to pay.

2nd, we're not talking about tanks that are MEANT to be a low PH. We're talking about Ph CRASHES. There is a huge difference there. Kinda the difference between parachuting out of a plane, and jumping with no safety apparatus at all.

3rd. Your fish are apparently used to a low PH which means your running a low PH tank. Your not experiencing PH crashes. You dont know what your tap is, but you add a bunch of stuff to the tank which drives down the PH the way its SUPPOSED to be because that is what your fish are USED to. I'd bet that if you emptied your whole tank and filled it back up with a water that has a PH of 8 and didnt add all the gunk that lowers PH...you'd find out quickly exactly what we're talking about.

 

[Dave Spencer]

[In your limited experience.

It is to do with water chemistry, not any experience I have gained, or otherwise.

I know what happens to my tanks if I run them without my crushed coral.

I can run a soft water tank with all the parameters I listed above driving the pH down, plus no bacteria colony, apparently......as can many others on planted tank forums.

There seems to be a mythical quest at the moment for the holy grail of 4dKH, and too many people are getting sucked in IMO.

Dave.

 

[drobbyb]

We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[LionessN3cubs]

[In your limited experience.

It is to do with water chemistry, not any experience I have gained, or otherwise.

I know what happens to my tanks if I run them without my crushed coral.

I can run a soft water tank with all the parameters I listed above driving the pH down, plus no bacteria colony, apparently......as can many others on planted tank forums.
There seems to be a mythical quest at the moment for the holy grail of 4dKH, and too many people are getting sucked in IMO.

Dave.

exactly...your RUNNING a soft water tank. Of course your not going to have issues, its MEANT to be soft water and low PH. Some of ours ARENT

 

[Dave Spencer]

[exactly...your RUNNING a soft water tank. Of course your not going to have issues, its MEANT to be soft water and low PH. Some of ours ARENT

My tank is what it is. It isn`t meant to be soft water, but soft water is what I have, so I go with it.

It`s not me killing fish like an "idiot".

Dave.

 

[LionessN3cubs]

[exactly...your RUNNING a soft water tank. Of course your not going to have issues, its MEANT to be soft water and low PH. Some of ours ARENT

My tank is what it is. It isn`t meant to be soft water, but soft water is what I have, so I go with it.

It`s not me killing fish like an "idiot".

Dave.

so just to clarify...


Its perfectly okay that you have a stable PH as a byproduct of all the chemicals you dump into your tank for other reasons, but people who are purposely trying to stabilize their PH are paranoid idiots...gotcha....love the logic, its suberb

 

[waterdrop]

In my experience chatting here on the forum, the vast majority of discussion we've had about KH and pH, and especially any mention of "crashing pH" has been about optimizing the fishless cycling water to get through the fishless cycle a bit faster. I'm usually at pains to describe to beginners that this is a whole separate thing from later when they have fish. I try to describe it as the water just being used to grow bacteria and then being thrown out.

When people have fish in the tank, I've been at pains to encourage them to go with whatever KH/pH they have coming in with their tap water. A very small minority of beginners have wanted to know what to do if they want fish that like a higher KH/pH situation but they have soft acid tap water. In the last year or so Indir and Lioness spring to mind, maybe a couple others, but maybe not. Its also been my experience that most of the members replying to beginners questions have tried to say that KH and pH will normally not vary nearly so widely once cycling is over and the normal tank life has begun and that hopefully water changes will be the main tool that can help maintain stability.

In my own case I have tap water with zero KH and a pH range of 6.4 to 7.2 or so. I used baking soda to buffer my "bacterial growing soup" but it went out with the big water change at the end of fishless cycling and I've not used crushed coral (yet) since I've had fish. Instead, my KH just stays about zero and my pH tends to be higher after my 50% weekly water change and lower by the next weekend. My rasboras, danios and cardinals seem to thrive in the soft acid water. My Amazon Sword seems to like it too. I like the feeling that the weekly water change is taking out the excess plant fertilizers from what I've put in during the week and that excess nitrate and other traces are going out and some Ca and Mg and so forth are coming in with the tap water.

I do think that the fishless cycling optimization discussions can make it *appear* like too many people are discussing CC or even baking soda in tanks that have fish in them, but I don't think that's really the case. In Lioness' case I think she was quite interested in mollies, which thrive in hard, alkaline water. She also lost fish and has been seeking info hoping not to repeat that. She's been going on the theory that her low KH allowed her pH to swing too greatly and that killed her fish. Dave, it could be that you feel if KH stayed low but about the same, that pH swings couldn't have been that deadly. Not sure myself. I do agree that underlying alkalinity (KH) changes are more trouble to fish than pH is. In Indir-emir's case I can't remember which species caused his concern about pH and I didn't keep close enough track to understand what happened to his cichlids (I think they were cichlids.)

~~waterdrop~~

 

[owen.h.lewis]

Hi all,
Thanks for the discussion and info on my topic, i thought i would give you all an update 1 day later.

Since my ph raised to an absurdly high level, and adding some ph down, i can home to my tank yesterday and the pH was at 6.4 - 6.5.

I also found 2 x dead fish ( 1 x guppy 1 x platty) which i guess would have been due to the dramatic change in ph (although i added the smallest amount of ph down)

I will monitor my ph from now on, and see if it changes over the next few days without adding/doing anything to the tank. I will also get a KH testing kit just to see where that is at.

I will post my water parameters from the next week morning and night(if i get a chance at work to post), and would love for people to help me work through this, as i think some of the decisions i have made (ph up/down etc) can/could be detrimental to my fish.

Appreciate all answers.

Owen.

 

[owen.h.lewis]

ok just to give you an update, my ph has been stable for the past 24 hours, it is still around the 6.4 - 6.5 mark.

I have noticed a larger amount of green hair algae on the glass and my filter etc, so i am planning to put my phosphate? pads in the filter like last time so that this goes away, and i have shortened the time i have the lights on slightly.

asap i will get a kh testing kit to see where that is at, and ideally i want my ph higher.


for now i want the fish to be stable and healthy, rather than playing around with it too much

 

[Dave Spencer]

Its perfectly okay that you have a stable PH as a byproduct of all the chemicals you dump into your tank for other reasons, but people who are purposely trying to stabilize their PH are paranoid idiots...gotcha....love the logic, its suberb

Who said my pH was stable? I wouldn`t know, because since the tank was set up last September, it hasn`t been tested for anything other than CO2.

My point was that I don`t do anything to adjust the water. I have stats that would have half of this forum freaking out and adding all sorts of crap, because soft waters tanks need crushed coral, apparently, to avoid "pH crashes". It is just plain wrong....and not wrong in my experience, wrong due to the water chemistry. Oh, and my happy fish suggest all is well too. no needless deaths here.

At the end of the day, it is your hobby and do what you like, but let us not drive everybody down the crushed coral, pH crash road. Hopefully, a lot of people are too smart for this.

Dave.

 

[waterdrop]

Dave, Now you caused my curiosity to resurface!

(This is probably the worst time to ask you, while you're still fussing with Lioness... )

... but I continue to be really interested in (and bear with me as I'm not sure I can express this in the right terms since I'm a beginner) how you view your personal approach through the planted tank world compared to whatever might be described as perhaps one of the standard high-tech planted approaches (which you would have to delineate for me since as a beginner I find those pretty hard to describe on my own really.) I assume that since you are really immersed in it, it would be hard to step back and not think about the details but to describe a broader approach type of thing but isn't there some way you could describe perhaps 2 or 3 variations of high-tech planted "approaches?"
(no doubt you'll sigh at this point.. but I'm hoping you won't just blow me off and say that one just does what has worked in one's experience..)
I'm wondering whether you feel that you take a pretty standard approach, perhaps just like Tom Barr and a lot of other high-tech-planted enthusiasts would (to grasp for an example to say) or whether you are truly a maverick taking somewhat of a new approach like using the Purigen or relying on high water movement to keep trace ammonia distributed and algae reduced (again, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.. you would be the one to know which aspects of your planted approach might be a bit off the beaten path as opposed to used by most planted enthusiasts..)
I'm probably just a beginner putting my foot in my mouth and asking something too personal, but as a beginner its so hard to see the forest for the trees as you know. I've been trying really really hard to form a mental picture of the "planted world." I've gone to the AGA and attended all the lectures and talked with hobbyists, talked with Amano even. I've talked with Diana (and read her book) and interviewed Neal Frank, who's been really helpful. Perhaps my problem is that the there really are few hard and fast approaches and I'm chasing a mirage, but I kind of think not. I think most high-techers are doing pretty similar things and I'm just a beginner still trying to see what the boundaries are of what they do. Anyway, I see you (and some of the other TFF planted folks, not sure how similar you all are in your approaches, but to me you usually seem pretty similar) TFF planted folks as clearly quite different from Diana's low-tech approach, but what I can't get a handle on is whether you are "mainstream" high-tech or something more different and unique?

~~waterdrop~~
ps. major apologies to owen for this massive hijack!

 

[LionessN3cubs]

(This is probably the worst time to ask you, while you're still fussing with Lioness... ) ~waterdrop



Nah I think we're done. Not much else to say, Im new and shouldn't be arguing about what killed all 30+ of my fish :::shrug::::

 

[owen.h.lewis]

it's all good for the hijack, just need to see what my next step is.

Came home after a 21st party, checked the pH and it is still stable as per my last post, the gH degree is 4, and the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are normal.

I have just seen those annoying snails turn up also, the little white ones, i have a clown loach so i just knock them off the walls of the tank, and hope he does his job.

I will add the phosphate pads to eliminate the algae, but with regards to ph etc, i will just get a kh tester kit, and see how it goes from there.

Hopefully it was just a glitch, and that after my next waterchange, everything is back to stable/normal.

cheers

 

[Dave Spencer]

Dave, Now you caused my curiosity to resurface!

(This is probably the worst time to ask you, while you're still fussing with Lioness... )

This probably got a tad personal, when it was never intended to be. I was just raging against a prevalent mindset that seems to be more and more apparent for situations where kH adjustment isn`t necessary, and can be harmful to fish.

I'm wondering whether you feel that you take a pretty standard approach, perhaps just like Tom Barr and a lot of other high-tech-planted enthusiasts would (to grasp for an example to say) or whether you are truly a maverick taking somewhat of a new approach like using the Purigen or relying on high water movement to keep trace ammonia distributed and algae reduced……

I am neither unique nor a maverick, but feel free to look at me this way. What I appreciate most about Tom Barr is that he doesn`t spoon feed answers to me or anyone else. But encourages people to observe what they are seeing and draw conclusions for themselves. Using powerheads in a large tank is something that I have recently learnt for myself, but the information has been around on planted tank forums for those that look.

Purigen (I thank Jeff Senske for this), carbon and Zeolite are three very useful weapons in setting up a new planted tank. I have never used carbon, but always have Purigen and Zeolite in my filters. The Zeolite becomes a good site for a bacteria colony. They do have their uses, and no, the Zoelite doesn`t leach ammonia back in to the water in my experience. Zeosand is very popular in the US. Zeolite is a much maligned additive on this forum, when it should be acknowledged that it does have its uses in the aquatic hobby. Carbon isn`t only for med removal.

One other thing to realise about planted tanks is that the bacterial colony in the substrate is very important. There is a beneficial relationship between plant roots and nitrifying bacteria which needs to be nurtured in the early days. This is why the mulm from established tanks is used by planted people to kick start a new tank. Using carbon in the substrate helps to reduce toxin levels that could be harmful to the root structure, getting the plants off to a slow start. Ask Tom about this next time you see him. I am sure he could give you far more details than I could.

I've been trying really really hard to form a mental picture of the "planted world." I've gone to the AGA and attended all the lectures and talked with hobbyists, talked with Amano even. I've talked with Diana (and read her book) and interviewed Neal Frank, who's been really helpful.

I am seriously jealous of all the people you get to meet, although we are starting to get visits from ADA personnel now, especially now UKAPS and The Green Machine have become established.

Planted tanks are far more simple than you probably suspect. Get your head around EI, which you probably already have, and there will nothing that you can`t grow.

Perhaps my problem is that the there really are few hard and fast approaches and I'm chasing a mirage, but I kind of think not. I think most high-techers are doing pretty similar things and I'm just a beginner still trying to see what the boundaries are of what they do.

I think you are right on this. As to “what is a hi tech tank?”, it is not really clear cut. As far as I am concerned, the moment an aquarist starts to feed their plants, thay are stepping in to the world of hi tech. Of course, there are several rungs on the ladder. To me, the very top of the ladder is occupied by aquascapers. Aquascaping is far more difficult than growing plants, and can only really be carried out once the basics have been mastered. Diana Walstad`s approach is not really as conducive to aquascaping as a hi tech tank. Diana would be the first to admit that she is not an aquascaper.

…but what I can't get a handle on is whether you are "mainstream" high-tech or something more different and unique?

Like I say, I am nothing unique. The thing about the mainstream planted tank business is that it is always changing and moving on. Many of us are moving away from higher light tanks for optimal growth, and realising the key is primarily down to good CO2 and ferts.

Certain mindsets need to be altered on TFF, such as “Crypts are gheavy root feeders”, you need T5 lighting, three generations of your family need to pass away before you can add Otos, shrimp etc…..

I like hi tech planted tanks for their beauty, but also for the technical background, and the fact that there are no strict rules holding them back. A lot of perceived rules are broken, and things are always moving forward and changing to improve the way planted tanks are run. Under the initial drive from Tom Barr, I feel that planted tanks are one of very few FW tank genres that are trying to understand water chemistry, and almost certainly the only genre with any kind of a grip on algae.

I know I come over as acerbic, but sometimes, after reading a sweeping general statement for the umpteenth time, that I know to be false from the experiences of many of us in the planted tank side, I feel the need to vent. I suspect your inquisitive mind will have you finding things out for yourself WD, and allow you to sidestep mainstream perceived myths.

What I would like to do is correlate the improved health of fish in a healthy planted tank. Very few well run planted tanks ever experience fish diseases. I think a lot of this can be attributed to the nigh on zero testing we carry out, which ultimately results in nigh on zero adjustment of the water chemistry.

Dave.

 

[waterdrop]

Thanks much Dave, have had a good read and chuckle here prior to lunch and I'm sure you've now provided me with more things I'll come back and comment on. By the way, the reason you don't see me starting up a little planted tank journal over there in the planted section and humbly starting with pics of a little algae infested beginner tank is that my family situation currently just can't handle and added tank and all the associated activity. I really want to but it just wouldn't fly yet with the rest of the family and so I have to be satisfied for a while with my brand of vicarious participation.

By the way, it works both ways. I get seriously jealous of all you UK hobbyists because I believe the hobby is better developed over there and besides, you get to have Tropica ... and UKAPS and shorter road trips between each other!

~~waterdrop~~