Ph Dropping During Cycle

[sean0151]

Hi Folks

Please let me first explain my position.
I work away offshore and have left my wife at home cycling my 600ltr tank,she is not a computer user so i am using this forum and passing on info on cycle by phone.
I only set the tank up 2 days before i came away and didnt have a chance to set up a system for my wife to do large water changes on such a big tank.
She is doing the water tests fine and everything was going well albeit slowly the last few days after a quick start.
Today she reported that PH has dropped to 6 (tap water usually about 7.2).
I have read through the forum and all suggest massive water change which is difficult at the moment as explained.
Is there any other option.
I have also read the bi-carb,baking soda theory.Is this a posibility for me and if so what is the dose.
Is there any LFS bought type of stuff to raise PH.

Also there is a lump of bogwood/driftwood (is there a differance) would it be advisable to remove that?

Thanks in advance

Sean

 

[JoshuaA]

Bi-Carbonate of Soda NOT baking soda.

Hmmm I'm not sure on the dosage... I used 2/3 of a table spoon on a 60 litre tank to raise the pH from 6.6 to 7.8/8. Possible 20/3 Table spoons. So 7.33 table spoons could well work for you. HOWEVER I would wait for someone else to confirm this may be close. It worked for me on both my 60 and 40 going of those ratios.

When your wife does add the bicarbonate of soda make sure she gets a bottle of jar or something adding tank water to the jar and only some of the bi carb and shaking it up and then slowly adding it each time that way.

 

[Harlequins]

The bogwood can lower ph, bi-carb can be added to raise ph in a fishless cycle,i've never used if so unsure on the dosing...

I would advise against using any ph up products,especially once you have fish in there,has a fluctuating ph is not good for fish.

 

[PDSimon]

Hi sean,

Its unfortunate that the tank has stalled, when your water is soft or even moderately soft it causes the pH to drop really quick when fishless cycling. It'll temporarily slow the bacteria over the next few days but should go back to normal soon enough.

Bicarb does work.. I had to use it about once a week, sometimes more on my cycle. Ensure you get bicarbonate of soda with no extras!

I'd say put about 8 tablespoons of it into the tank but hopefully someone can double check this. What it will do is raise the (carbonate) hardness of your water making it harder for your pH to drop, as well as increasing your pH. The best pH level is 8-8.4, so if you do go ahead with the 8 tablespoons, test with the high pH test kit and dose again if necessary.

I agree it'll be best if you remove the bogwood for now.

Sometimes after dosing bicarb it doesn't come up on the test kit straight away, but it should 24 hours afterwards.

 

[JoshuaA]

Hi sean,

Its unfortunate that the tank has stalled, when your water is soft or even moderately soft it causes the pH to drop really quick when fishless cycling. It'll temporarily slow the bacteria over the next few days but should go back to normal soon enough.

Bicarb does work.. I had to use it about once a week, sometimes more on my cycle. Ensure you get bicarbonate of soda with no extras!

I'd say put about 8 tablespoons of it into the tank but hopefully someone can double check this. What it will do is raise the (carbonate) hardness of your water making it harder for your pH to drop, as well as increasing your pH. The best pH level is 8-8.4, so if you do go ahead with the 8 tablespoons, test with the high pH test kit and dose again if necessary.

I agree it'll be best if you remove the bogwood for now.

Sometimes after dosing bicarb it doesn't come up on the test kit straight away, but it should 24 hours afterwards.

My bogwood never effected the pH after the Bi-Carb was added. On both cycles the pH held exactly the same for the entire cycle and I only ever had to dose once. I was shocked.

Anyway with such a big tank, I think you may as well tell your Wife to make sure its "Bicarbonate of Soda" then add 6 table spoons and do a pH test the next day. She can then fine tune it by adding a table spoon per day until the pH reaches the desired 8/8.4. It's a big enough tank that it easy to place chemist on where as a smaller one and guessing the dosage can be a bit disastrous.

 

[PDSimon]

Once you add bicarb the buffering capacity is increased, but when it drops again things like bogwood will help it drop quicker I think. If you keep an eye on the pH, testing every other day or something.... Then you could leave the bogwood in. Its just a precaution really, not a necessity that you remove the bogwood.

 

[sean0151]

Cheers for that.

Bi-carb it is then and i think ill take the wood out just for good measure.
Once the PH is back up is the effect on the cycle starting up again usually fairly rapid?

Sean

 

[PDSimon]

It varies I think but should be back to normal within a few days. Once it does get going, the conditions should be better suited to the bacteria to multiply, so in theory it should speed up. This may not even be noticible though.

 

[Gvilleguy]

Bi-Carbonate of Soda NOT baking soda.

Just curious - what is wrong with using pure baking soda? I just completed a fishless cycle (assuming the OP is also doing fishless??), and as my soft water crashed several times to a pH of 6.0, I used a couple teaspoons of Arm & Hammer baking soda each time to raise the pH back up to 8.4 range. Worked like a charm every time.

 

[drobbyb]

Bi-Carbonate of Soda NOT baking soda.

Just curious - what is wrong with using pure baking soda? I just completed a fishless cycle (assuming the OP is also doing fishless??), and as my soft water crashed several times to a pH of 6.0, I used a couple teaspoons of Arm & Hammer baking soda each time to raise the pH back up to 8.4 range. Worked like a charm every time.

I've always used just plain baking soda with no ill effects. On the box it says: Contains sodium bicarbonate. I think I paid 58 cents for the box of baking soda, whereas a similar sized box of bicarbonate of soda lists for $6.99. They are both the same thing, go figure.

 

[FishyWishie]

Bircabonate of soda is pure sodium bicarbonate.

Baking powder contains sodium bicarbonate, but it includes the acidifying agent already (cream of tartar), and also a drying agent (usually starch)

The baking powder i have has wheatflour and other things i def don't want in my tank so ill be sticking to the Soda

 

[JoshuaA]

Bi-Carbonate of Soda NOT baking soda.

Just curious - what is wrong with using pure baking soda? I just completed a fishless cycle (assuming the OP is also doing fishless??), and as my soft water crashed several times to a pH of 6.0, I used a couple teaspoons of Arm & Hammer baking soda each time to raise the pH back up to 8.4 range. Worked like a charm every time.

I've always used just plain baking soda with no ill effects. On the box it says: Contains sodium bicarbonate. I think I paid 58 cents for the box of baking soda, whereas a similar sized box of bicarbonate of soda lists for $6.99. They are both the same thing, go figure.

As explained above some of the baking sodas out there can have caking agents and others in. You definitely don't want that in your tank.

for $6.99 I think you shop is robbing everyone, I got a tub of BiCarb for 0.89p from sainsburys and that's not the fairest priced supermarket at all.

They are not always both the same thing, why risk it? go figure.

 

[Gvilleguy]

I see. The only ingredient in Arm & Hammer in the states is 100% sodium bicarb, so I think it's fine.

 

[waterdrop]

Right, I was about to comment on Joshua's statement too. I think its all a matter of the words and their meanings to different people or in different geographic locations perhaps. For my own part, I've tried to be pretty consistent in saying "Baking Soda", not "Baking Powder" to people. In the USA, Baking Soda, as far as I know, always means pure sodium bicarbonate (or bicarbonate of soda, same thing) and is clearly distinguished from Baking Powder, which is the one that -might- have added corn starch and acid salts in addition to the sodium bicarbonate that makes up most of it.

In my opinion, the two en.wikipedia entries ("baking soda" and "baking powder") have excellent paragraphs covering all the naming differenes ("bicarb" etc.) and the chemical makeup differences. Other than the somewhat more frequent use of "bicarbonate of soda" term in the UK, this is not one where we've had a lot of over-the-pond differences.

I mentioned in another thread recently that the rough quantity guideline I go by is to think of 1 teaspoon per 50L as enough to raise KH without raising pH. This is the low extreme of baking soda dosing during fishless cycling. The high extreme I put as 3 teaspoons per 50L (3 teaspoons equals a tablespoon, by the way) and so I often recommend 2 teaspoons per 50L, since its middle of the road.

As ever, I'll mention for anyone not familiar with this topic that we always recommend baking soda as a means of doctoring up the "bacterial growing soup" and not as something one does with fish in the tank. It can change mineral content and pH too fast for fish if not done extemely carefully. For fish in, we (reluctantly) use crushed coral in a meshed bag in the filter, in some cases (but that's all a different topic.) Also, we don't normally recommend any sort of pH up or down or whatever products, as these often contain still other leftovers from their salts.

Baking soda sounds like an excellent move in the case described by the OP, where water changes will be difficult for a while. I probably wouldn't even take the wood out.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JoshuaA]

If there the definitely the same thing in the US then that shop is making a killing on idiots!

The baking soda I found in sainsburys (Like 2/3rd biggest supermarket in the UK) had the caking agent in. Where as obviously Bicarbonate of Soda was purely NaHCO3.

Thanks for clearing that up WD.