Overcrowding or ok?

[PheonixKingZ]

Guppies are neither aggressive nor terratorial.

Respectfully, that is not correct. As @Colin_T said, female guppies have a pecking order. In the wild, there will be a group of 100 or more guppies, and 1 female guppies will be in-charge of it all. She will have a little “Body Guard Team” That will be with her all the time, and help out with the “Pecking”.

This is a direct quote from a “Guppie expert sight”, “So, it comes as a surprise to many, and especially to aquarists that have no previous experience with guppies, that these fish can become territorial and can become aggressive.”

(If you would like to read the hole article, here is the link.: https://guppyexpert.com/guppies-aggressive-fish/)

Again, I mean no disrespect.

 

[Naughts]

Respectfully, that is not correct. As @Colin_T said, female guppies have a pecking order. In the wild, there will be a group of 100 or more guppies, and 1 female guppies will be in-charge of it all. She will have a little “Body Guard Team” That will be with her all the time, and help out with the “Pecking”.

This is a direct quote from a “Guppie expert sight”, “So, it comes as a surprise to many, and especially to aquarists that have no previous experience with guppies, that these fish can become territorial and can become aggressive.”

(If you would like to read the hole article, here is the link.: https://guppyexpert.com/guppies-aggressive-fish/)

Again, I mean no disrespect.

I try not to comment/ debate if I have no experience keeping the species as all the reading in the world is no substitute for experience. Reading doesn't offer any context. It's just the difference between IMO (in my opinion) and IME (in my experience).

 

[FishGuest5123]

I have to respectfully agree here. The experts are going to be the hobbyist that have raised guppies. They know what they experience as an eye witness. When people talk about Gourami s, Jack Dempsey’s, Angel Fish, etc. I read and learn but don’t comment. Why? Because I have no experience with these fish.

 

[FishGuest5123]

Respectfully, that is not correct. As @Colin_T said, female guppies have a pecking order. In the wild, there will be a group of 100 or more guppies, and 1 female guppies will be in-charge of it all. She will have a little “Body Guard Team” That will be with her all the time, and help out with the “Pecking”.

This is a direct quote from a “Guppie expert sight”, “So, it comes as a surprise to many, and especially to aquarists that have no previous experience with guppies, that these fish can become territorial and can become aggressive.”

(If you would like to read the hole article, here is the link.: https://guppyexpert.com/guppies-aggressive-fish/)

Again, I mean no disrespect.

That applies to many species of fish. I would agree more with a betta sorority in such action. We are talking about a few guppies here, not 100’s.

 

[Byron]

On a very general topic, experience and knowledge...all the experience in the world is not always a substitute for knowledge gained by adequate research.

How many times have members "recommended" a male Betta in with other fish like tetras, inevitably saying "I had no problems." Maybe not, but that is the rare exception, not the norm, and experimenting against the norm is inhumane treatment to the fish.

Research teaches us everything, and our experience may back it up or in some cases may not, but it does not change the knowledge that exists in adequate reliable research, though it may add to it.

I do not need to experience putting two male angelfish in a 30 gallon aquarium to know what is going to occur if the fish are normal. We all learn everything we know from others, be they teachers in school or parents or professional ichthyologists and biologists who have spent years in the field, often including considerable experience of their own.

As I said, I am being very general here. I am not making any observations/statements concerning the guppy issue.

 

[Byron]

I understand what you’re saying @Byron but I disagree in this case. Telling someone “Respectfully, that is not correct” just rubs me the wrong darn way when that person has no experience with the fish at all. Don’t read something and then tell me I’m wrong. If I have the experience and have seen it for myself then I know what I’m talking about, by golly! If he had said, “ I found some info to the contrary” that would be fine. To tell the member they were “incorrect” when I know they were correct just got me. It wasn’t even directed at me and it got me.

My post observations had nothing to do with the specific issue, as I tried to make clear. I was commenting for the record solely on the question of experience/knowledge that was raised, not the specifics. Sorry that didn't come across though I intended it would. I didn't mean to imply any member was right or wrong, and I happen to agree with you on the specifics.

 

[FishGuest5123]

On a very general topic, experience and knowledge...all the experience in the world is not always a substitute for knowledge gained by adequate research.

How many times have members "recommended" a male Betta in with other fish like tetras, inevitably saying "I had no problems." Maybe not, but that is the rare exception, not the norm, and experimenting against the norm is inhumane treatment to the fish.

Research teaches us everything, and our experience may back it up or in some cases may not, but it does not change the knowledge that exists in adequate reliable research, though it may add to it.

I do not need to experience putting two male angelfish in a 30 gallon aquarium to know what is going to occur if the fish are normal. We all learn everything we know from others, be they teachers in school or parents or professional ichthyologists and biologists who have spent years in the field, often including considerable experience of their own.

As I said, I am being very general here. I am not making any observations/statements concerning the guppy issue.

So reading one article is enough “research” to tell an experienced keeper that they were wrong? I tend to disagree.

 

[Byron]

So reading one article is enough “research” to tell an experienced keeper that they were wrong? I tend to disagree.

I did not say that either. I wish to goodness now I had not even bothered to correct a misconception of a general nature. Please, read my posts. My intention was merely to point out that experience does not replace adequate knowledge. I said nothing about anyone having or not having knowledge.

 

[seangee]

I agree with @Byron that research is invaluable. However (IMHO) we should be careful not to simply pass on information we have discovered on a web search, which should not be confused with research.

Anyone can get a domain name claiming to be an expert. In this case the site owner is open about the fact that it is an Amazon affiliate site which suggests that its primary goal is to earn revenue. Personally I give members credit for using their initiative and assume they have performed a web search, as well as searched through this site. I don't believe that I add any value by googling the answer to a question and repeating it.

So, like @Deanasue I will try not to answer if I don't know. What I know is mostly from experience (although its not neccessarily best practice and may be different to others' views) as well as information obtained from this site. There is a danger that bad information posted here becomes part of that learning and is unwittingly perpetuated, so we should strive to avoid that if we do not want the site to fall into disrepute.

I am not going to comment on the accuracy of the quote (I used to breed guppies and endlers so do have an opinion ). However I am concerned that in recent months there has been some inappropriate (and occassionally downright bad) advice given on this site

 

[Byron]

Yes, post 24 above and 26 following are what I was trying to get across. Thank you.

 

[Kritastrophe]

Little side step on the topic based on the most recent discussion. I think educated people hold value over mere personal observation. For example I’ve witnessed a multitude of surgeries by doctors in ORs because I was a diagnostic imaging technician and provided fluoro, x rays, etc when I was active duty. That doesn’t mean I’m qualified to give advice on performing surgeries.

Witnessing behavior in fish and having “success” with fish without understanding the environment, wild behavior of these fish, physiological aspects of their inherent environment, etc isn’t an expert to me. Personal experience with fish you’ve had or have without any understanding or knowledge outside your fish tank holds as much merit as mine on how to perform a knee replacement, etc just because I’ve witnessed the procedure a multitude of times. Yea I get the gist, I’ve seen the surgery performed hundreds and hundreds of times, and I know anatomy - it’s required but there’s more to it than just witnessing it over and over.

There is a reason for reading and learning and becoming truly knowledgeable from reliable sources. It’s important to understand the whole picture. A fish in a fish tank that may not even be remotely close to their natural environment, water parameters, food, and so on isn’t ideal for the fish. Just because their fish are living doesn’t make that owner an expert or their advice correct.

I’m not in any way suggesting any of the information here is inadequate or wrong. I’m only discussing the value/merit of education over personal beliefs/experience without outside knowledge.

 

[FishGuest5123]

I did not say that either. I wish to goodness now I had not even bothered to correct a misconception of a general nature. Please, read my posts. My intention was merely to point out that experience does not replace adequate knowledge. I said nothing about anyone having or not having knowledge.

I apologize. It’s just that we have a particular member who will Google something just to give an opinion. Today it appeared they wanted to argue and be right. It is not helpful to the site at all..

 

[FishGuest5123]

Little side step on the topic based on the most recent discussion. I think educated people hold value over mere personal observation. For example I’ve witnessed a multitude of surgeries by doctors in ORs because I was a diagnostic imaging technician and provided fluoro, x rays, etc when I was active duty. That doesn’t mean I’m qualified to give advice on performing surgeries.

Witnessing behavior in fish and having “success” with fish without understanding the environment, wild behavior of these fish, physiological aspects of their inherent environment, etc isn’t an expert to me. Personal experience with fish you’ve had or have without any understanding or knowledge outside your fish tank holds as much merit as mine on how to perform a knee replacement, etc just because I’ve witnessed the procedure a multitude of times. Yea I get the gist, I’ve seen the surgery performed hundreds and hundreds of times, and I know anatomy - it’s required but there’s more to it than just witnessing it over and over.

There is a reason for reading and learning and becoming truly knowledgeable from reliable sources. It’s important to understand the whole picture. A fish in a fish tank that may not even be remotely close to their natural environment, water parameters, food, and so on isn’t ideal for the fish. Just because their fish are living doesn’t make that owner an expert or their advice correct.

I’m not in any way suggesting any of the information here is inadequate or wrong. I’m only discussing the value/merit of education over personal beliefs/experience without outside knowledge.

Very well written. Researching and studying fill us with wisdom. Simply Googling one article is not my idea of studying and learning.

 

[Byron]

I apologize.

Accepted with sincere appreciation.

 

[Jennifer Deleon]

Im no expert and i may be wrong here but adding hard water fish like liverbearers to a tank with soft water fish like your Tetras may cause you problems..

Do you know what your water hardness (GH) is Jennifer?

Lovely tank by the way

I actually don't exactly know the hardness but I use tap water but I condition the water before putting it in my tank. But so far my 4 cardinal tetras and shrimp I first started with as a run after full cycling have been doing great. I looked up san Diegos water hardness and I quote this is what I found " depending upon water demand and area of the City you live can range from 16 to 18 gr/gal or 272 to 284 ppm" I don't know if that helps?