Old Guppy? Bullying? Rot? Disease?

[Vengified]

Before the rundown of the issue, here is the stats anyone may want *(Please Note: I understand tank MIGHT be overstocked, or will be soon, and thus have been moving, and trading guppies, to reduce population)*


Tank size: 20gallo
pH: 8.2
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 5 currently(never more than 10-15)
kH: Unsure (TDS >300)
gH: Unsure (TDS >300)
tank temp: 78°F (~25.5°C)
Fish Symptoms: Fish is lethargic, resting often when used to be more active, seems shy and easily startled when used to be the Alpha of the tank. Recently (today) developed some slight red discoloration on very end of caudal fin.
Volume and Frequency of water changes: 50% every other day for the past week (Normally ~30% weekly, increased due to fry explosion)
Chemical Additives or Media in your tank: UGF & Aquaclear (Coarse Sponge, Purigen, Biomax), Prime for water treatment
Tank inhabitants: One Honey Gourami, 3 Otocinclus, 2 Ghost Shrimp, 3 Male Guppies(Adult), unknown quantity fry(estimate 30-50 @ 3/8" or 8-9mm, 7 days old)
Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration): None (Removed two adult females and 3 juvenile males today, but issue was apparent before this)
Exposure to chemicals: Prime, nothing else
Digital photo (include if possible): Photo and Video included below brief explanation.


My oldest Male (Sophie), has been gradually becoming less and less active over the past 7-10 days. He was with me at the start, before I knew what a nitrogen cycle was, (but learned thanks to these forums), so I've had him 6 months, and he had a rough start in a 2.5g with absurd Ammonia levels. But since hes had larger tanks, he has flourished as a large, boisterous, alpha male, until last week. I chalked it up to age and a rough early life with me, but tonight I am seeing some red tint at the end of his tail. I also noticed, and recorded yesterday, one of the juvenile males, seemed to be pestering him, and he wasnt "letting him have it" like he used to do with anyone who tries to bully him. He was sort of swiping away with his tail, but more in a scared manner, as opposed to chasing across the tank and trying to headbutt offender into a paste on the aquarium glass manner.


I havent separated yet, as he has been able to find refuge for the most part, among plants and driftwood and decor, and I dont want to cause undue stress, but can remove him to a 10g with only RCS if needbe. I just need some input as to whether hes just nearing the end, and that's the way it is, and if so, to let it ride, or put him down? Or if its fin rot, septicemia, or something else? Any input is greatly appreciated! Thank you!

 

[Colin_T]

It kind of looks like a red lump or blister. Do the red dots stick out from the tail or are they smooth?

It is not finrot but could be a localised bacterial infection that has infected several sections of the tail due to the tail possibly being damaged by the younger male.

His physical condition actually looks pretty good besides the red dots. You can try salt (1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres) in the gourami oto tank, or double that dose in a tank/ container without the gourami or catfish. If there's no improvement after a couple of days, or it gets worse quickly, then put him in a separate container and add Methylene Blue. Keep him in the methylene Blue for a week and see how he goes.

 

[Vengified]

Thanks @Colin_T it is smooth, not a lump, just a discoloration of his tail, not an addition of the tail. The video was a couple days ago, the picture was yesterday (today I'm posting this response, yesterday was OP). He might look ok in the pic except for the slight red tint, but he doesnt act ok. He is most definitely timid and reclusive. The honey gourami came into his own, and is more a part of the gang, but they are timid by nature as I understand, which he still has his moments. But Sophie makes the gourami look like a wild party animal now. He barely comes out to eat, and then darts back to a hiding spot.

I put him in a breeder net, and for a little bit, he acted sort of frantic, but after a bit he mellowed out. His breathing has even slowed down, compared to when he kept hiding. I think its bullying which led to whatever might still be ailing him. Kind of weird he all of a sudden started being bullied, because this activity started, even before I got rid of the females!

As far as the salt treatment, would RCS, adults and fry both, be fine with the stronger salinity? My 10g has just those in it, and a few guppy fry female, very small ones, less than 10mm. I just wanna give him the best chance! I have grown attached to my honey gourami, and always loved my "Frodo the Oto" and his friends "Gandalf" and "Bilbo" (not a LOTR nerd, just like how the Frodo the Oto rolled off the tongue, so went with a theme for all the otos), but anyways, Sophie, is my #1 fish, and I know it will happen eventually, but I do not want to lose him! Neither does my son Myles!

I notice his tail has a split in it now, right in the middle. It's a perfectly straight line, looks like a razor thin perfectly straight split.

If you check this, let me know if he should go in the 10g for the stronger salt treatment, or if I need to throw a small filter and heater in a WC bucket and go get methylene blue for him? I have the small heater and small filter from the old 3g tank I can use, the tank however split pretty bad, kids... Thanks!

 

[Colin_T]

I have no idea if coloured shrimp tolerate salt but they should be because they all evolved from marine shrimp. However, I have never kept them so be careful if you double dose them with salt.

If the guppy's tail has a split it might be better to treat him with Methylene Blue straight away. You can use salt and Methylene Blue for a bit more kick.

Methylene blue will wipe out filter bacteria so monitor the water quality when using it.

 

[NickAu]

Salt will not harm cherries if it's for a short period.

 

[Vengified]

Lol! @Colin_T literally RIGHT after I wrote my last message, I got in the truck, drove to the store, bought a tank and meds, came back home, got it set up, and put Sophie in it, with salt and meds! Then got on forum, saw you said to do the exact thing I already did! How many times is it now, that I did what you said to do, before knowing you said it?!

It's only a super small 1g, I know, too small, but he wasnt doing much swimming at all in the 20g, other than trying to get away from other fish. He seems a lot more mellow in the 1g, just laying on the floor. I will do daily, or twice daily water changes and/or tests if needbe for this guy though! I used filter floss that I leave in the Aquaclear to be seeded, for this exact reason. Since it's only 1g, I used 1.25 Teaspoons of salt, since that works out to 1/5 of the dose of 2 Tablespoons for 20L(5.5g).

The small heater I have in it, has always ran a little warmer than I think it should, so the temp sits at 82°F (27.8°C), this should be fine for the salt and methylene blue right? And the methylene blue isnt JUST methylene blue, it's the Jungle Buddy Fungus Clear one. Lists ingredients as nitrofurazone, furazolidone, and potassium dichromate. Not sure if it's exactly the same as Kordon blue, but it did turn the tank blue, and has good reviews online, and it was the only thing available besides Ick Clear. The local LFS was closed early today, not sure why, no note on the door, and Petco and Petsmart here, never have any REAL meds, just the melafix and pimafix and herbals, so I went to Walmart and got the Jungle Fungus Clear.

Hopefully I am doing right by him? I dont wanna throw all my other fish in one tank, and REALLY dont wanna kill one of my two big cycled tanks, or stain them blue, which is why I got a little acrylic. If I keep up with daily W/C, it should be sufficient I hope? Thanks again guys!

Pics of the poor sick fish in his poor little tank:

 

[Vengified]

Just a quick update: since turning off the light, he has started moving about, instead of just laying on the floor! I havent seen him moving this quickly in almost a week! I hope it's because it may be helping, and not because he is overly stressed?! I checked levels, and everything is fine, though I'm sure it will build toxic over time, if I didnt take care of it.

But maybe the darkness, heat, salt, meds, and being alone, has made him feel more comfortable. Even when it was dark in the big tank, he wasnt moving this much.

 

[Colin_T]

Jungle Buddy Fungus Clear is different to Methylene Blue. Straight Methylene Blue only contains methylene Blue and nothing else.

Methylene Blue treats bacteria and fungus and is safe for all fish, young and old. We used it to treat fish eggs to prevent them getting fungal infections when shipping eggs.

-----------------------
Don't bother changing medications now. Just stay with what you have and keep treating for at least 1 week preferably 2 weeks.

Salt is usually fine with most medications but the Jungle treatment reduces oxygen, as does salt. Keep aeration high to maximise oxygen levels in the water, but not too high so the fish is being washed around the tank

 

[Vengified]

I figured that medication reduced oxygen, and I know heat does as well. The only agitation is the filter, and it makes bubbles, kind of a weird internal filter, tetra 3i I think it's called. Even with a higher temp, and medication, Sophie isnt acting like he is oxygen deficient at all. He has been swimming off and on, and resting at different depths of the tank, but hasn't once appeared to be at the surface gasping, or even at the surface for very long.

If he felt "suffocated" he would be hanging at the top constantly, correct? I just wanna make sure. I know if people are suffocating, we struggle to get air, I assume fish would be the same, at the surface, as opposed to the bottom of the tank, and I know he can swim to the top or rest at the top if he chooses, since hes got some floating plants he can rest on.

If not, I'll run some airline and a 'T' off one of my other air pumps for him, but I gotta find one lol. I dont have any spare air stones atm either, but as I said, the filter makes a heaping mass of bubbles on the output.

 

[Colin_T]

If the oxygen levels in the water drop to very low, fish will gasp at the surface to try and get oxygen from there. If the levels are low but not too low, they often just try to slug it out. If they are sick they might not be able to get to the surface.

It's always a good idea to increase surface turbulence when treating fish for anything because the higher oxygen levels help them recover faster. A bit like people getting oxygen when in an ambulance or in hospital.

You don't need an airstone, just use a bit of airline and a T piece & tap, and have the airline bubbling away a few inches below the surface near the filter outlet. You can have the airline lower down if you like but watch the fish and if he starts being blown around the tank by currents, then raise the airline up a bit or decrease the air coming out of the tubing. You want some water movement but not too much, and you want lots of surface turbulence to maximise the oxygen levels in the water.

 

[Vengified]

Yea, I threw a piece of airline in for good measure before going to bed last night. It's not too strong, and he doesnt get blown around at all. Except when he was sleeping, he was laying on the floor, and kind of drifting around, but it didnt seem to wake him at all, and it was a very slow drift.

He is doing WAY better so far today. Havent closely inspected him for physical signs of improvement, but his activity is very obviously much improved!

I worry that the nh3, no2, no3 will rise fairly quickly in a small tank, and want to make sure I w/c as necessary, however the medication instructions only specify to do a 25% w/c after 4 days, and re-dose if necessary. Should I w/c anyways, but add another dose of medicine and salt to the water before adding it into the tank, and do a 90% w/c?

 

[Colin_T]

This is why you use bigger tanks/ containers for treating fish

In this case I would take water from the main tank, add salt and do a 100% water change on the sick tank each day. Then add a new dose of medication at full strength.

This will keep the water clean and free of ammonia, and keep the medication at full strength.

Wipe the inside of the glass before each water change and either scoop him out in a container of water, and rinse the tank out before refilling with the water from the other tank that has salt in it. Or leave a tiny bit of water in the bottom with him and fill up with the water from the other tank that has salt in. Then add medication.

 

[Vengified]

Yea, I know a bigger tank would have been better. Trust me, if I had room (and wife wouldnt castrate me), I would have a dozen tanks, maybe 2 dozen. I only got away with another small tank, because its Sophie, and she has actually grown attached to him. Happy wife, happy life, especially when she is pregnant. Dont wanna get on her bad side at the moment. So I'll suck it up and put in the extra effort for my little fish buddy.

I've been watching for about 3 hours now this morning, (just couldnt sleep, its 7:30am, been up since 4:30am, didnt even go to bed until 2am), and it seems like Sophie is better, but my Honey Gourami is acting more skittish than normal. I havent witnessed any bullying whatsoever, since before the lights came on, just 2 male guppy adults pacing the walls and chasing each other in the current, and 2 juvenile males picking the substrate, and dozens of babies aimlessly flitting about, but no one even acknowledging the gourami. He was a lot more out in the open, and active when I had the females in the tank 2 days ago. He doesnt have any bite Mark's, tears, bruises, anything like that, nor any sign of illness. Color is fine, fins aren't clamped, and he picks at substrate a little like usual. But he used to casually swim to surface for a breath of air, then casually swim down. Now he slowly creeps up, pauses about 3/4 of the way, then speedily goes up, takes a breath, then darts real fast halfway down, then goes back to picking substrate or hanging out.

Is he acting funny cuz I was in the tank 2 days in a row taking fish out and he is afraid hes next? Was the female guppy that followed him around, his friend, and he misses her? Are the male guppies just too active for his liking, without the females to slow them down in a sense, (the males swam a bit slower, to match the female pace, except for the occasional dart, where as now they chase each other at near full speed)? Or is it normal for honey gourami to just be more timid after any sort of environment/occupant change?

 

[Colin_T]

I've been watching for about 3 hours now this morning, (just couldnt sleep, its 7:30am, been up since 4:30am, didnt even go to bed until 2am),

YOU KIDS, GO TO BED!

It sounds like something is stressing the honey dwarf gourami, which is why it slowly approaches the surface, then darts up, grabs air and returns to the bottom. Have you got any floating plants (water sprite) in the tank?

Is he acting funny cuz I was in the tank 2 days in a row taking fish out and he is afraid hes next?

Yes, your fish are all terrified of you and "ahhh run away, the net, the net. swim for it, every fish for themselves"

By removing a big male you have changed the pecking order in the tank and the smaller males are probably re-establishing the pecking order. Anyone who gets in their way could be bullied? Give the gourami a few days and see how it goes.

 

[Vengified]

Ok. I'll just keep an eye on things, I figured it was a combo of removing all females, removing Sophie, and being in the tank repeatedly. Still not quite sure how I lucked out with my Otos, all 3 original ones from months ago, all 3 still seem to be great. Mostly come out at night, but aren't hiding during the day anymore either, I think because of dimmer 50/50 light, and plants taking over.

Yes of course I have many many many floating plants. Besides the one java fern, all my plants are floating. Have a few diff kinds, not even sure of what most are, but I do know one is either water wisteria, or water Sprite, not sure which, just know its water something. The hornwort is where gourami usually hides. He does have a betta leaf suction cup deal on the opposite side of the hornwort, by the floating random stem plants, but has been avoiding it since the two adult Male guppies usually chase on that wall.

... Man ... I take females out, because they keep dumping a hundred babies every 3 weeks, and everything goes out of whack. Maybe I should get rid of every finned creature, buy one pea puffer, and give him the run of the 20g, see how long it takes for him to eat the bajillion snails before he starts eating RCS...