Newbie Questions + Ph Issues

[mark4785]

Thanks for the info RadaR.

I haven't been dosing micro-nutrients because my German Blue Rams cannot be kept in water with nitrates over 20ppm (I was told). If these fish were not in the aquarium, I'd happily allow the nitrate level to go to 60-80 ppm or more but since they have been going ill in response to PH swings, I really don't want to introduce another stressor.

I don't want to introduce pressurized C02 as theres already enough aquatic equipment in the house, but I'll definitely look into getting liquid carbon.

Given what plants I have, in theory what exactly should I be doing each day to ensure their vitality, or rather what would you do?

P.S. I think i'll probably just have to throw the plants away and start over. They will probably look like they've gone through a bonfire by the time I know how to care for them.

 

[waterdrop]

Mark, got sent here by your link from your beginners thread and I have not read this full planted thread so I may be missing something... but in my experience, when pH continues to gradually rise it nearly always turns out to be something in the tank. If its not your substrate then it might indeed be your decorative object. I dose plant nutrients and never worry about them with respect to the fish.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[mark4785]

Mark, got sent here by your link from your beginners thread and I have not read this full planted thread so I may be missing something... but in my experience, when pH continues to gradually rise it nearly always turns out to be something in the tank. If its not your substrate then it might indeed be your decorative object. I dose plant nutrients and never worry about them with respect to the fish.

~~waterdrop~~

This is the decorative item I have. I never thought that would be the culprit at all.. are you sure a fake life-like decorative item can raise/lower PH?

What aquatic items are PH neutral? I've heard that terracotta plant pots are PH neutral and something like that would be ideal for the aquarium as the fish like to hide from the tank light. Any tips/advise from anyone regarding PH neutral products would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Mark.

 

[scotty]

why not try a bit of bogwood/mopani wood to lower your ph,your rams would really appreciate it.

cheers

scotty

 

[PDSimon]

I agree, I would've put the bogwood in days ago but if you don't like it or the idea of it terracotta pots don't change the pH.

You know these people say its pH 'neutral' does that mean it gives of a neutral pH or that it is inert? because really you want inert things in your tank unless they're lowering the pH safely.

 

[mark4785]

I agree, I would've put the bogwood in days ago but if you don't like it or the idea of it terracotta pots don't change the pH.

You know these people say its pH 'neutral' does that mean it gives of a neutral pH or that it is inert? because really you want inert things in your tank unless they're lowering the pH safely.

My interpretation of 'PH Neutral' was that anything considered to be PH neutral does not leach things into the water that are capable of changing the water's PH level. So if I have a PH level of 7.6, adding a PH neutral decorative item/substrate would not cause that PH level to go any lower or higher.

I do have a piece of bog wood in a packet and I think I agree with you that it's time to put it in on the condition that it will lower the PH slowly and safely (so as to not cause stress to the fish) and that the PH goes no lower than 6.5.

I have a PH buffer product arriving in the post soon which buffers the water PH to 7.0. This will hopefully come in handy during water changes as I really do NOT want to be topping the tank up with tap water with a PH of 7.6 should the tank water be very acidic.

What must I do before placing the bog wood into the tank? I really don't want brown water which I've heard is an issue when you place it into the tank. Do I need to place it in boiling water?

 

[PDSimon]

I have no idea about these products that buffer the pH so I can't comment. The bogwood may well lower it past 6.5. This won't both the GBRs, they can probably go much much lower, but I guess there are other fish that can't go below 6.5 that you have?

I boiled my bogwood and put it in a bucket for a few weeks (only changed the water a few times though). If I were you i'd boil it, scrub it down a bit and stick it in. It'll release tannins which make the water yellow, I don't mind it much, I guess its just opinion. It may go quite a strong yellow at times if you havn't soaked it much but over time it will steady out and leave the water with a slight yellow (thats if you have enough bogwood). I quite like the colour tbh and its more like GBRs natural environment.

The tannins and what not (scientific term..) that it releases will lower the pH gradually. It may go past 6.5 but this could take ages and will probably be controlled by your weekly waterchanges. Thats if it even does lower your pH.

my tank gradually lowered to about 6.3 over a few weeks from 7.5 and the weekly changes keep it about there.

heres it at the most yellow a few weeks back

this it now you can see the yellow. If oyu don't like it you could use activated carbon/carbon pads, not sure if that would stop the pH going down though. Don't think so... This is what it looks like now

 

[mark4785]

According to sources my Black Neon Tetras like a PH between 5.5 and 7.5, the Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish prefers a PH around 6.5 and my German Blue Rams like a PH range of between 5.0 and 7.5. So there is room for PH movement.

I will grab a bucket and fill it with boiled water. I'll then place the bog wood in there over night. In the morning I'll place more boiled water into the bucket and scrub the bog wood. Later tomorrow, I'll place it into the aquarium.

I won't really mind the yellow/brown tinge it creates, all I'm concerned about are PH swings.

I guess once the bog wood is in, the next thing I must do is concentrate on doing minimal water changes because the tank water PH is likely to be VERY different to my tap water PH. If the bog wood doesn't change my PH level, does anybody know what I would need to do to get around this?

Thanks again PDsimon.

Mark.

 

[PDSimon]

not quite sure how you would get around it yet, but for your reassurance, I have rummy nose tetra and bolivian rams in my tank and they don't mind 25% waterchanges with cold 7.5pH tap water. It doesn't make much difference to the pH i.e. 25% waterchange won't change the pH by 25%

 

[mark4785]

not quite sure how you would get around it yet, but for your reassurance, I have rummy nose tetra and bolivian rams in my tank and they don't mind 25% waterchanges with cold 7.5pH tap water. It doesn't make much difference to the pH i.e. 25% waterchange won't change the pH by 25%

Ok thanks for that.

Once, when I did a 18-20% water change (with tap water with a PH of 7.4-7.6) after finding that the PH had risen to 8.0, I was able to re-establish a PH the same as the tap water. So if my bog wood brings the PH down to say 6.5 and an inevitable water change needs to be done I am really going to tear my hair out in anticipation of what may happen

 

[ajs2294]

not quite sure how you would get around it yet, but for your reassurance, I have rummy nose tetra and bolivian rams in my tank and they don't mind 25% waterchanges with cold 7.5pH tap water. It doesn't make much difference to the pH i.e. 25% waterchange won't change the pH by 25%

Ok thanks for that.

Once, when I did a 18-20% water change (with tap water with a PH of 7.4-7.6) after finding that the PH had risen to 8.0, I was able to re-establish a PH the same as the tap water. So if my bog wood brings the PH down to say 6.5 and an inevitable water change needs to be done I am really going to tear my hair out in anticipation of what may happen

I'd stay in the 6.8-7.5 range dropping below 6.5 and your getting more acidic obviously drop below 6 and you better have a lot of pH knowledge and below 5 i'd say expert lol. I know of a guy that keeps one of his tanks at 4.5 insanity.

 

[RadaR]

Going over 20ppm is still going to be fine for "sensetive fish". Clive (one another forum) is one of the most knowlagable people I know when it comes to planted tanks/chemistry etc. He had some "sensetive" dwarf Cichlids in 60ppm on nitrate. No problem. It's organic waste that you have to watch out for when keeping sensetive fish. Completely different to nitrate.
pH swings have also shown not to be a problem. We can experience a drop of 1 pH when injecting CO2. Do the fish mind? Nope. Do those Discus in the link I posted look like they are struggling?
Studies have shown that what causes the pH to swing is what's dangerous to the fish rather than the ph swing itself. e.g. something wrong with the KH.

 

[ian]

I agree with RadaR, i have read about the organic waste being the main problem when looking after sensitive fish, hense the water changes on a Discus tank. Fish frequently in the wild swim through/into different Ph waters. I have never kept gbr but know people who have and they have kept clean water and not worried so much about Ph and the Rams were fine. If your planning on breeding then, yes, you'll need to keep an eye on the Ph.

 

[mark4785]

I agree with RadaR, i have read about the organic waste being the main problem when looking after sensitive fish, hense the water changes on a Discus tank. Fish frequently in the wild swim through/into different Ph waters. I have never kept gbr but know people who have and they have kept clean water and not worried so much about Ph and the Rams were fine. If your planning on breeding then, yes, you'll need to keep an eye on the Ph.

I'm only worried about the PH because of it's tendency to change. I know organic waste is the most important thing to avoid with fish, but it appears GBR's respond negatively to slight PH changes. For instance, when the PH went up to about 7.8 from 7.4 the male GBR started to shake it's head (looked like it was having a fit) and it occasionally scratched itself on the surrounded ornaments to relieve presumably some skin irritation. Now, when the fish was acting like this I can say with 100% confidence that the ammonia/nitrite levels were at 0 and nitrate was at 10 ppm. The only potentially stressful factor was the the PH swing which appeared to have induced alkinosis on the male GBR based on the way it was acting. Other fish appear to not be bothered by such PH changes, but when it comes to GBR's, they always seem to respond in a more negative manner.

I have tested the PH of the 2 beakers (one containing water and the other water and my sand substrate). Both there PH levels has risen from 7.4 to 7.8. It can't be the sand increasing my PH, seems to be the water itself!

 

[PDSimon]

Your water has a pH of 7.8 then... what happens is it has a lower pH when it comes right out of the tap because it holds more c02. Bit of a pickle... It might be that the water pH is varying and sometimes its 8 etc