Newbie, Most Likely Getting It All Wrong, Are My Levels Terrible?

[russboy]

Hi all, first post on here so be gentle!

I have a 5ft 500 litre tropical set up with an Eheim 2327; contents of the tank are sand, wood and this lot:

3 8-10" Oscars
A breeding pair of Texas Cichlids
2 YO YO Loaches
2 Reed fish
1 catfish

Now this is an existing set up and has been up and running for some time with no probs ................ until we took ownership!

Ok we're novices and as such as the tank was a bit manky after the move (we managed to bring across around 70% of the existing water) we thought it was because of the filth in the filter and we did the cardinal sin & washed out the media, but with tap water Ok (stop laughing at the back) we know we got it wrong royally

Now from the advice we've received from 2 local shops one supplied us with a trays worth of mature media which we put into the Eheim although not the same type as more rock based rather than stone based. At the same time from the other shop we got and put in 25ml of ‘Stress Zyme’, and around 7 capfuls of ‘Prime’. We also, in a purposefully designed bag, put in two boxes of the ‘Tunze’ Filter Carbon 870.901 in front of the spray bar. One shop even said about putting a filter into the 2327 to collect sediment, even though when i’ve looked on the net it was never designed to have this!

Now as for what has happened already well that’s done now so we can’t change that. We’ve now monitored our levels and they are as follows:

24/8/10

PH = 8.2
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 2
Nitrate = 6

25/8/10

PH = 7.5
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 2
Nitrate = 5

26/8/10

PH = 7.5
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 2
Nitrate = 5

Firstly what do people think of the figures? We’ve just noticed the test kit could be 4yrs+ old so are the results likely to be accurate?

The local shop have advised they think the PH & Nitrite are too high, especially the Nitrite. To combat the Nitrite prob they’ve said stop feeding the fish, lower the temp from 26 to 22 & do 10% water changes every day, what’s the general opinion on that advice? The PH is poss because we live up on Epsom Downs which is a very hard water area, but the PH we can address in the future.

I’m getting conflicting advice from two different shops & I just don’t want any of the fish to die so need advice really,

Thanks in advance,

Russ

 

[russboy]

Oh and we were tempted to try and get as much waste product out of the sand, again is this something we should be doing?

 

[russboy]

Just bought another test kit as we thought the othe was prob just too old:

Amonia = 0.4 mg/litre
Nitrite = 4.0 mg/litre
Nitrate = 75 mg/litre
PH = 8

 

[OldMan47]

Welcome to the forum Russboy. No laughing from me.
You are having a serious nitrite spike that must be dealt with using water changes, not simple treatments with chemicals. The ammonia at .4 ppm is a bit nasty and slightly poisonous but the nitrites at 4.0 are deadly. You need an immediate 75% water change with a good cleaning of the gravel in the process. Once that is done try measuring the nitrites again to determine how big the next water change today should be. Your target is to get both ammonia and nitrites to less than 0.25 ppm. Use the prime to dechlorinate the water you are adding instead of trying to make believe that it will make those poisons safe for your fish. It will help slightly but not much for that.

 

[russboy]

Thanks for your reply,

Our test kit measures in mg/litre not sure if that works out to be the same as ppm, but we're getting a a gravel cleaner/vacuum tomorrow & will be doing a big water change as well.

Were tempted to just get rid of the sand and go with gravel whilst doing the water change, is this a good idea?

Strangely enough we've notcied tonight that the Chiclids have laid eggs on the wood, so at least theyre enjoying something in there!

 

[OldMan47]

mg/l and ppm are the same exact numbers. The milli gives you a 1000 fold ratio and the difference between a gram of water and a litre gives you the other 1000 multiplication factor. That means ppm and mg/l are exactly the same.

 

[russboy]

4 hrs yesterday spent when we got home from work yesterday.............

1. Fish out of the tank
2. 50% of the water removed
3. Sand & waste hoovered out
4. Gravel washed and put in warm water with water treatment then added to tank
5. New plants added and buried inside rocks (will they let them stay there!!)
6. Fish back in
7. Water treatment added to large buckets of same temp water then added
8. Even managed to cut & fit a bit of wood onto the hood to stop light projecting onto the wall instead of into the tank

Result is a much cleaned looking tank, lot more activety from the fish as the catfish & yo yo loaches we've never seen them so much!!

We put a small amount of food in last night but I virtually fed the Oscars by hand to make sure we didnt over feed as they hadnt been fed for 48 hrs

So the important bit is the measurements:

27/08/10 1hr after all work done

Ammonia = 0.1
Nitrite = 1.5
Nitrate = 50
PH = 7.5

28/08/10 Morning after its been running all night & settling

Ammonia = 0.1
Nitrite = 0.5
Nitrate = 50
PH = 7.5

So improvement, work to still be done but much better & we'll be keeping a close eye on it all

Oh and my Rottie cross 'Tia' absolutely loves them!!!

 

[waterdrop]

This is great! You've really put in a lot of hard work on your new tank and this is the kind of thing that often needs to be done when a somewhat-neglected tank is taken over. Getting a really good clean of the gravel is a good thing.

Buried in the advice OM47 gave you and in the activities you conducted is a a major principle we try to help all our newcomers with and one that we still need to work on. Some measures make a much bigger difference than others and it pays to understand them:

I'm sure with big oscars in there and given that so much change was taking place, you felt that 50% was what you should do, but that was not enough water changed and you need to again change more. Only water changes (and water changes should always have conditioner and rough temperature matching (as you've done)) will bring the poison levels down into the comfort zone for the fish.

Nitrite(NO2,) even in tiny amounts, causes permanent nerve damage (the result of the NO2 being able to grab the positions on the hemoglobin protein on the surface of the fish red blood cells and essentially suffocate the fish. Ammonia, even in tiny amounts, causes permanent gill damage.

The stress and damage of these two substances, in levels above 0.25ppm, *trumps* all other considerations. Almost any concern about the shock of a water change or that sort of thing completely pales in comparison to the gravity of the poison exposure from the fish's point of view. Water changes (with good technique, because they are large) are magic for this situation, and once you get your logistics down, they are a manageable piece of work.

Your ammonia and nitrite levels, while much improved, are still too high per your last post and still qualify as an urgent emergency for your fish. Of course, your filter(s) is at work and numbers may be lower as I write this, but they need to be frequently checked.

To the extent that your bacterial biofilms in the filter have been disturbed, even on the mature media donated to you by the shop, and of course the greatly reduced original colonies due to the tap water cleaning, you are in a Fish-In Cycling situation possibly nearly all the ammonia and nitrite removal will need to be via manual water changes by you for the 2,3 or 4 weeks it may take to re-cycle your filter. Every tank is different but with big fish, you know your levels may jump up quite quickly during the day.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[russboy]

Hi,

Thanks for your reply, we're going to run another test tomorrow, and based on that another one during the week, if we dont see further drops on either test, then water changes it is. Much easier now we have, albeit a cheap, gravel hoover, as we can clean the gravel as we remove water.

Also being a bit tight on feeding at the mo, so as to not polute the water more, we may end up with thin fish but better that than those which float to the top!

 

[Wills]

Hi Russboy! This looks like a really interesting tank and your really putting in the hard work to make it a fantastic one! You have a lot of big bruiser fish in there but if they are living together well I would leave it so! They do look really healthy as well! Would love to see some more pics - why not post a few more over in the New World Cichlid forum quite interested to know which species of Texas Cichlid you have and also what your catfish is

Wills

 

[karin]

Wow what a tank to take over! Trust the folks above, they are the best and will get this sorted out for you. I agree with all there advice so far. I do think you need to get ready to do daily water changes though. What I wanted to add is that if you don't have one, get yourself a Python water changing hose and valves or something similar. They make water changes soooooo much easier. Good luck to you.

 

[OldMan47]

Holding back on feeding only will remove one source of ammonia. You seem to have overlooked the decaying fish wastes contribution and the ammonia produced at the fish's gills. Waiting a week to find out if things will get better on their own means subjecting your fish to the poisons for another week. Your nitrites are too high and need to be brought down. The fish will not appreciate waiting while they can barely catch a breath.

 

[waterdrop]

Sigh, agree with OM, as usual. WD

 

[russboy]

Since my post on 28th havent had a chance to get back on but have been working on the tank. As I said we were going ti run another test the following day & further during the week, didnt say we would wait a week though, as we're well aware this needs to be addressed ASAP. We have done a partial water change again & as well as the water being crystal clear we have been able to feed them a little more & the results are as follows:

29/08/10

Ammonia = 0.1
Nitrite = 0.25
Nitrate = 5
PH = 7.5

30/08/10

Ammonia = 0.1
Nitrite = 0.2
Nitrate = 5
PH = 7.5

So again a further improvement but we'll def be keeping an eye on them all in the coming week, again thanks for all your info & help

Russ

 

[karin]

Again, your Ammonia and Nitrite are too high. You have to do bigger water changes and daily. Don't have to test for Nitrate until you get the other two under control at 0. This really isn't a game of "it is getting better" because any amount is harming and stressing the fish.

I just got this from the section below on Member tanks... think of it this way, we are not fishkeepers as much as we are waterkeepers. Keeping fish in tanks is completely artificial. Tanks are prone to pollution because of their size and the number of fish we keep and it is our responsibility to deal with it for the fish health and welfare. I like this perspective to reorient us to the water and environment rather than the fish themselves.