Newbie Advice

[kaznpaul]

Hi, I'm Paul and I've recently aquired my first Tropical fish tank. I've had a look around the forum and it seems very helpful but I have a few questions in particular just to make sure I'm on the right track. I've read up about cycling and have a very vague understanding of how it works. As advised by the fish shop worker near me I bought a start up kit that contained de-chlorinator, food, and also some other thing that I can't remember off hand which supposedly enabled me to add fish only 24 hours after first filling the tank, it was meant to speed up healthy bacteria growth I think. I'm slightly worried about this as I've added about 13 fish to the tank and now I've come on here and seen that most people advise to leave the tank for a week or so and do fishless cycling. I was told to take a sample to the fish shop after 2 weeks to make sure the water is ok but after reading up on here I'm tempted to do this sooner. Also, I'm wondering how much and how often I should do water changes. I've heard anything between 10-50% and between 1 and 4 weeks so again I'm not sure what to believe. As far as the fish go, they all seem to be doing well and are very active and don't appear to be fighting etc. after 2-3 days of co-habiting the tank. I'm just a bit worried that the ammonia and nitrite levels may build up too fast or to too high levels so want to make sure I'm getting correct advise to keep me on track. The other question I have is with regards to adding air to the tank. I was told by the fish shop I don't need a bubble pump but the way my tank is set up the filter returns water back to the tank under the surface level so there isn't really any surface disturbance. Do you think it's advisable to buy a air pump, if so which kind is the best? The tank is an octagon shaped column tank approximately 19.5" in diameter and 3'10" tall. I'm concerned about the oxygen as it's quite alot of water capacity for a small surface area, but again I'm not certain how this works. Any advise will be much appreciated and please don't get mad at me if I'm asking stupid questions, I've only had it 2 days and I've tried to do some research before asking lol! I'm new to fish forums but use car forums alot and can see myself getting addicted to this one aswell haha! If you need any mroe info to help me out just ask and I'll let you know! Cheers!

Paul

edit: I'm also wondering whether or not to bother getting a plant yet, will this just add to the confusion? I'm thinking it may be a good idea to get used to the fish tank first before getting a plant or are they not that difficult to maintain?

 

[Shaman]

Hi

I've just finished cycling my tank with fish in. I ended up having to do daily water changes of 30-40% every day to get my ammonia levels down below 0.25ppm.

One of the things you'll need (and it'll be cheaper than getting the LFS to test your water all the time) is something like the API Master Test Kit.

Does the filter pump have an adjustable angled "output" if so, I've angled mine so that the jet out the pump breaks the surface of the water aerating it.

This is a good article http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=224306 about fish-in cycling. You'll probably get more responses as well over in the "Your New Freshwater Tank" section.

As for the plants, I bought some java fern and attached it to a lump of bogwood to help with the ammonia. This is doing fantastically and is surviving in my low light tank.

Shaman Dan

 

[Wills]

Hi there welcome to the forum and the hobby

It sounds like you stepped in right at the deep end and put your self in whats called a fish in cycle. This is not really a bad thing just a lot more work on your part than a fishless cycle. Ill explain what this entails in a sec but first just a note about the bacteria products you can buy from the shop.

In a word they are useless, the bacteria in your fish tank needs a source of ammonia and oxygen rich flowing water to stay alive or to be chilled in some way like in a fridge and this needs to be done from the production in a factory to the shop then chilled while in the shop and then again when in use but it is never chilled from the factory and most of the products are never even chilled and since there is no way to flow water in the bottle as well the bacteria has been dead for a long time - rendering the product useless so see what Im saying? Its not worth using or buying especially how expensive it is now.

Right so first things, the best thing you can buy right now is an API master test kit this will enable you to test your water when ever you need too for ammonia and nitrite which are the two chemicals that will be present in your tank now that are a massive threat to your fishes lives.

Ammonia is a chemical caused by all rotting organic materials, in this case it is caused by the fish poo which is inevitable in a fish tank. The ammonia is highly toxic and kills fish when it gets to a traceable level. However there is a type of bacteria I was on about before that eats ammonia and turns it into a chemical called nitrite in a similar way that we convert oxygen to carbon dioxide in our lungs.

Nitrite is also a poison to fish and equally as potent as Ammonia but in the exact same way there is a bacteria that forms in water that feeds on the Nitrite and turns it into Nitrate which is quite harmless to fish in general.

So in a tank that has been running over a few months the bacteria builds up and creates a cycle of the chemicals that build up in this way

Fish poo -> Ammonia -> Nitrite -> Nitrate - then we do water changes to remove the Nitrate.

However in a new tank like yours you have to grow the bacteria in a fishless cycle you bypass the fish and the fish poo and add pure ammonia which grows the same bacteria but without exposing the fish to the chemicals but it means you have to wait 5-7 weeks ish to add any fish

The fish in cycle situation like you are in uses the fish poo to grow the bacteria for the process I said about above. But the fish in the tank are being exposed to the toxins and are at a risk of death and disease. So to compensate for this you need to do daily water changes of around 40-50% per day.

I know its a lot to take in but any questions just ask away

When you say you added 14 fish what species are they? Or if you dont know the names can you post pictures and also do you know how much water the tank holds in either liters or US gallons

Wills

 

[kaznpaul]

I was told the tank was 260litres but when I figured it out I got around 230litres so it's somewhere around there. The fish in the tank are all different but there are 5 guppies, 1 red fin shark, 1 marble angel fish, 2 zebra some things? 2 albino corys, 1 plec (thing that sucks on side of tank)? I still haven't changed any water yet and I don't have any dechlorinater so I'll have to do it tomorrow and hopefully they'll still be going strong like they seem to be at the moment. I just bought 3 small plants too as I was advised these will help with oxygen. I plan on buying an air pump and stone set-up tomorrow too so any advice on good ones which aren't noisy for this size tank?

Cheers!

Paul

 

[Wills]

Yeah I would get on the water changes quite quick and while increased airation in this situation is good its not the most important thing really right now. The fish will be fine for now as they are all small and so creating low waste levels but it will build up in the next day I should imagine make sure you get an API liquid test kit and see what the readings are like.

The fish you have at present are good options for that tank apart from the pleco who will outgrow the tank eventually growing to around 12-18 inches. If you want a plec there are over 400 species of plec that are in the hobby and some are amazingly beautiful like the inspector plec which is black with large white spots. http/www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/numbers.php?mode=l&thumbs=16&start=240&genus_id=0 Have a look through those pages and you will see what I mean

Also were the zebra things zebra danios? If so up their numbers to around 10, though as a guide I always tell people on these, I had a mental group of these a few years ago I had 15 to start with and the group just killed each other off till there were 3 left and would not accept any new comers it was a night mare but for that reason I would recommend a big group - though my experience is a rare occurrence it does happen. Also up the numbers of your albino cories as both the danio and the cories are whats called shoaling fish so in the wild they stick together often in schools of hundreds and sometimes thousands so in our tanks people reccomend minimums of 6 but the bigger the numbers the better but make sure they are all the same species so all zebra danio and all albino cories as though they will group with the other species of danio or cory in each case. It is not the same and its more of a compromise rather than ideal situation you will also get a better chance of breeding in the same species groups.

Plants dont generally help with the airation because although they produce air through the day from the Co2 in the tank at nighttime plants suck air in but they do help to soak up nitrite, nitrate and ammonia in the tank but in this stage dont spend money on expensive plants as new tanks often have algae breakouts which will go but you need to take care with them and you dont want to get expensive plants covered in algae at the start. I have moss balls in my tank which are great for soaking up excess Nitrate.

Wills

 

[kaznpaul]

Thanks, very helpful advice. We planned to get a few more of the schooling fish when the tank's established I especially like the albinos as they seem very active but my girlfriend doesn't like them as one jumped out the tank when she had the top open and scared her to death haha! And yes I think the zebra ones are danios and these are also a favourite which I plan to get more of. We were thinking about getting a Viking fighter but were advised it may not be a good fish to mix with our current fish, is this true? Thanks for all the help, I've been out and bought more de-chlorinator so I'll get the tank water drained tommorow after work and let you know how it goes from there. Also our fish shop does free water testing so I might take a sample in there and see what they say.

Thanks,

Paul

 

[Wills]

I really would get your own test kit they are about £15 and last ages its going to be a lot easier for you to work out whats happening in your tank if things go wrong. And yeah the fighting fish are not best kept in community tanks mainly due to their massive fins, not only are they a target for other fish to nip but in some big tanks with strong water flow they have trouble swimming because of the specific breeding that they have undergone for centuries they are now better suited to solitary life in a small tank around 5-10 gallons though a few small tank mates are manageable in there.

With the water change sorry I forgot to answer that, around 40% of the tank will be fine but dont turn the filter off during the water change and you can add the dechlorinator to the buckets of water that you are adding to the tank and give them a quick swirl around and your done and make sure to try and match the water temperature as best you can

Wills

 

[kaznpaul]

Thanks, the only question I have left now is regarding the water changes and not turning the filter off. The way our tank is set up, it has an external filter with lots of valves built into the pipework so looking at it, it would be much easier to use one of these to hook up directly to a hose to syphon the water out. If this is a big no no then I suppose I could just put a hose in the top of the tank and syphon that way but with it being such a tall tank it would be a lot more convenient to use the taps that come out the side and go to the filter. What do you think?

Thanks!

Paul

 

[Wills]

It is possible to do this but Ive never done it so long as you dont flow the fresh water through filter straight away you will be fine. But I would still syphon some out with a hose so you can clean the gravel/sand and get all the poop out - I hate how much of this hobby revolves around poop but its just always there....

Wills

 

[kaznpaul]

Sounds good! I'll do it like that and see how it goes. I ended up getting an air pump yesterday too with a 6" stone. Are there any cheap online shops to buy things like the test kits from? They sell them at my fish shop but I think they're a bit more than £15 and it's always handy to have a couple of cheap online shops for things like this? The pump and airstone I bought was cheaper online than the petshop near me by almost half so I think it's a quite expensive shop so I'd like to avoid getting things from there if possible haha!

 

[Wills]

Ah right yeah ebay is your friend for the test kit. No real cheap online stores afraid but there is a site called aquarist classifieds which is a great website for finding equipment and rare fish

Wills

 

[kaznpaul]

Cheers Mate!!

 

[James9114]

Hi

I've just finished cycling my tank with fish in. I ended up having to do daily water changes of 30-40% every day to get my ammonia levels down below 0.25ppm.

One of the things you'll need (and it'll be cheaper than getting the LFS to test your water all the time) is something like the API Master Test Kit.

Does the filter pump have an adjustable angled "output" if so, I've angled mine so that the jet out the pump breaks the surface of the water aerating it.

This is a good article http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=224306 about fish-in cycling. You'll probably get more responses as well over in the "Your New Freshwater Tank" section.

As for the plants, I bought some java fern and attached it to a lump of bogwood to help with the ammonia. This is doing fantastically and is surviving in my low light tank.

Shaman Dan

hi there im in the same situation as you but im doing water changes every 2 days. does doin water changes everyday not stress out the fish? A reply would be much appreciated thanks james

 

[OldMan47]

Welcome to the forum KnP.
I have been away for a few days and see you have been getting some decent advice. Your first instinct to distrust the LFS is a good one. It will keep you from blindly following what is often poor advice. We have had lots of members report that they were using this or that instant cycle product with almost always the same result. The darned stuff just does not work. Where that leaves us, in the real world is faced with either doing a fishless cycle on our tanks, which can take several weeks, or doing a fish in cycle, which takes just as long to finish but requires much more effort by the new fish keeper. Where we end up is really up to each new fish keeper. I will advocate using a fishless approach because it is far less work to do with success. A fish-in cycle is the way I did things for many years but I have revised my thinking with experience. A fish-in cycle does have one advantage over any other method, it lets you have some fish in your tank from the first day. If that is important enough to you, the added work of a fish-in cycle may be worth it to you. I am just too lazy to keep doing that for the over 25 tanks that I have running. I have links in my signature area that will let you read up on both methods and make an informed decision.

 

[kaznpaul]

Thanks for the help. I had my water tested for the first time yesterday and everything was at 0 but the ammonia was .8-.9 which I was told is the moderate range and a couple water changes should help. My ph was 7.5 which I was told is fine. Am I right in thinking that because my Amonia is high(ish) and my nitrate/nitrite are so low that the water hasn't even really began to cycle yet. I've got a fair few fish in the tank and I've had it for over a week now so is it normal for the nitrite levels to have not even began to rise?

Thanks,

Paul.