New Tropical Tank

In my opinion i dont think it matters whether yu cycle your tank or not?! I have recently (3weeks ago) set up my three foot tank after owning a two foot for 2 months, everything brand new including external filter, let filter run for 4 days before i brought some guppies and wacked them in, after two days i added a tormented electric yellow than closely followed by redtail shark and albino shark! Now 3 weeks on without doing a fish in or fishless cycle i have two green terrors, two electric yellows two peppermint bristlenose albino shark redtail shark and a BGKF all in the tank and my green terrors have laid their first eggs!!!! i tested my water on the weekend just gone and everythin was fine although ammonia was up 0.05ppm which obviously didnt bother the fish!!! So are there people out there testing the waterways for all these bad things that can "kill" fish??? i dont think so, so i dont see why its such a great deal that everyone needs to do this cycle? im so over hearing cycle this and cycle that, who the hell cycled the waterways??? pretty sure if u went and got water from the locals of each breed of fish im sure the water would most definately not be perfect!!!!!! so why make our aquariums with perfect water?? we are putting fish into a restricted space and in most peoples eyes are "making it safe for them by doing a cycle!!" isnt putting them into a restricted space enough??, what happens if they dont like the perfet water??? Than im prettty sure we are doing wrong by the fish correct???? To this day i have not done a cycle on either of my two taanks and i have not had one fish dye!!!

Thats my opinion about cycling and before yu go off and blast me everyone is entitled to their opinion!!!!

Thanks for all the feedback guys, i dont have any plants in the tank, is this necessary? I have an air pump/block. I have been using tap safe etc for the water, is stress coat better to use when fish are in the tank? Can you buy it in mass quantaties as i have a 240 litre tank and go through it very quickly. Or mass quantaties of tap safe?

Danny
 
wow you got to be kidding me, have you not heard of the products Cycle or Products that are PROVEN to have dormant bacteria in them that are brought out of statis when the correct conditions are met? and your saying a fish in cycle is harmful for fish? sorry, not in my experience in my 5 years+ of fish keeping Ive lost maybe 3 fish due to cycle which was in my very first tank. it depends on what your going to have in the tank. now if you want discus obviously you don't use them to cycle. but 75% of the fish out there can handle it fine, my tanks are LIVING proof lol. having a empty 55gal+ aquarium in your living room isnt exactly appealing at least to me it isnt. why would you try to CHEAT natures way? and you CAN keep fish away from harmfull substances as long as the FISH KEEPER does his w/c and doesn't add ridiculous things to his aquarium. and how does not going to sleep at night have ANYTHING to do with w/c? its not like you do them every waking minute. I also forgot to mention the importance of plants in a cycle even like 3 and your tank will instantly cycle. now if you would like to debate on that topic please feel free but be ready cause i know my stuff in and out.

Forgot to add, on my home forum EVERYONE there recommends a fish in cycle, i could recruit them here to submit feedback on here sometime if you like~

First off, the majority of cycle products DO NOT WORK, it has been proven! Bacteria need a food source and oxygen to live, neither of which they are getting sat in a bottle on a shelf for weeks / months / years. There was only 1 ever proven to work and production stopped about 3 years ago. An none whatsoever instantly cycle your tank.

Secondly, the reason I mentioned sleeping is because in 6-8 hours that you sleep, ammonia and nitrite can quite easily rise above 0.50ppm - 1ppm even if you do a water change before bed, therefore your fish are subjuect to harmful substances.

You absolutely said it in your post, you said FISH KEEPER! Most people on this forum would be called FISH HOBBYISTS, the difference being a hobbyist will always put the fishes needs before their own, which you proved my selfish point by stating having a 55 gal tank in your room which isnt appealing by having it empty, so what? its not gonna kill you to have an empty tank for 8 weeks to ensure your fish are healthy.

Also, how can you say you've never had a fish die due to a cycle? Ammonia causes LONG TERM gill damage, and nitrite causes LONG TERM damage to the nervous system, just because they dont die during the cycle, doesn't mean that fish that have died in the past wasnt DUE to the cycle.

I'm looking forward to the more experienced members on this forum (30+ years hobbyists) as like yourself I have only had fish for 5 years.

Also, having 3 plants in a tank does not instantly cycle it! You dont have a clue what you are talking about. You can get away with not cycling a tank which is VERY heavily planted and understocked but its certainly not recommended

Andy
 
In my opinion i dont think it matters whether yu cycle your tank or not?! I have recently (3weeks ago) set up my three foot tank after owning a two foot for 2 months, everything brand new including external filter, let filter run for 4 days before i brought some guppies and wacked them in, after two days i added a tormented electric yellow than closely followed by redtail shark and albino shark! Now 3 weeks on without doing a fish in or fishless cycle i have two green terrors, two electric yellows two peppermint bristlenose albino shark redtail shark and a BGKF all in the tank and my green terrors have laid their first eggs!!!! i tested my water on the weekend just gone and everythin was fine although ammonia was up 0.05ppm which obviously didnt bother the fish!!! So are there people out there testing the waterways for all these bad things that can "kill" fish??? i dont think so, so i dont see why its such a great deal that everyone needs to do this cycle? im so over hearing cycle this and cycle that, who the hell cycled the waterways??? pretty sure if u went and got water from the locals of each breed of fish im sure the water would most definately not be perfect!!!!!! so why make our aquariums with perfect water?? we are putting fish into a restricted space and in most peoples eyes are "making it safe for them by doing a cycle!!" isnt putting them into a restricted space enough??, what happens if they dont like the perfet water??? Than im prettty sure we are doing wrong by the fish correct???? To this day i have not done a cycle on either of my two taanks and i have not had one fish dye!!!

Thats my opinion about cycling and before yu go off and blast me everyone is entitled to their opinion!!!!

You dont cycle your water, you cycle your filter! so your comment about the waterways is obsolete.

Does your filter have zeolite or ammonia remover in it?

If not then your tank will go through a fish-in cycle whether you like it or not and if that is the case then I dont expect it will be long before you see why you need to cycle a tank as the fish in there will be permanantly damaged.

Also,

1. A BGKF grows to 2ft long, hows it going to live in a 3ft tank? and turn around?
2. It wont be long before your redtail shark starts attacking your other fish, as they mature it WILL become aggressive in a 3ft tank.

Andy
 
I only just added chemi pure due to the fact of a brown colour from the dirftwood, so my tank obviously wont go through the cycle, and whats it mattter if it does! as i have said all my fish were in the smaller 2 ft NOT CYCLED and lived for 2 months now in the NOT CYCLED 3 ft and still no deaths!!! the day one dies ill apologise and say i should have cycled it, till than im sticking by it doesnt matter if yu cycle or not!!!! No further comment!
 
I only just added chemi pure due to the fact of a brown colour from the dirftwood, so my tank obviously wont go through the cycle, and whats it mattter if it does! as i have said all my fish were in the smaller 2 ft NOT CYCLED and lived for 2 months now in the NOT CYCLED 3 ft and still no deaths!!! the day one dies ill apologise and say i should have cycled it, till than im sticking by it doesnt matter if yu cycle or not!!!! No further comment!

Im not going to even waste my time on you, you really shouldn't be allowed to keep fish with that attitude. Your the sort of person who wouldnt even admit if you were wrong anyway!

I just feel sorry for your fish.

Andy
 
Well try stop me?? all because you say yu should do a fishless cycle and i disagree im not aloud to own fish??? You would have to be a deadset tosser aye!!! Feel sorry for my fish? if they were so sick cause i didnt cycle my tank why the **** are they breeding than!!! answer me that one!! if they didnt feel safe in their tank or the conditions they wouldnt breed!!! oh thas funny they are so obviously thy like their new tank and have no problems wit the water!!! No waste your time on me its great listening to someone who im sure would wanna bore me with their rubbish tlk,, go ahead enlighten my night
 
Thank you for all your replies guys, i wont be having goldfish, i already have a few of them so i am going for tropical this time. When i am ready to put fish in, what temperature should i have the tank at? Also, what would be a good tropical fish to get the tank started? a "hardy" fish it says in the filter and tank manual.

Danny

You say you already have goldfish. If you take some of the filter media from their tank, you can put it into your new filter, and it will speed up a fishless cycle. You can safely remove up to a third of the goldfish's media.
You'll still need to cycle the tank though.
 
What's wrong with providing the new pets under your care, the tropical fish, with the kind of environment they thrive in and not the type of environment that's increasingly driving their species to extinction?

This thread brings together three common fallacies on display for our beginners:
1) That fish-in cycling situations are shorter and easier than fishless cycling.
2) That fish are not harmed by fish-in cycling situations.
3) That bottled bacteria products are an easy solution to cycling.

The main limiting factors in speeding up the creation of a working biofilter are the actual slow rates of biofilm construction and cell division and colony formation of the two autotrophic species needed for the filter to become operational. The source of food, the ammonia, does not change these limits. A fish-in cycle takes just as long as a fishless cycle but is just less controlled because the aquarist has less direct control over the amounts and dose timing of the ammonia. It would be difficult to place controls on how much water fish move through their gills or how much they pee and when.

As far as ease of biofilter preparation (or cycling as we call it,) its a pretty subtle difference between a good fishless cycle and a well-performed fish-in situation. The main headache for fish-in is the greater number of large water changes that must be performed in an attempt to limit the amount of damage to the fish. In a well-performed fish-in, the number of fish and their size will be tiny compared to the tank volume, which will lower the size and number of water changes for the hobbyist but will drag out the process for a longer time. Very few beginner fish-in cycles are well-performed. In most cases the number of fish used is much to large from the get-go. Once a hobbyist has successfully performed a fishless cycle it becomes more obvious to them why the fish-in practices became old-school back in the 1980s.

Secondly, its a myth that fish are not harmed by fish-in cycling situations. This, I believe, has been pretty well-understood by ichthyologists for decades. Even young aquarists often have some early experiences with healthy-looking fish dying that help them to realize that visual inspection by humans bears little to no relation to what fish are experiencing or what the state of their long-term health is. While it is quite true that tolerance (the capacity for enduring) of ammonia and nitrite(NO2) varies greatly by species, there are still some fundamentals that are well-understood.

When water passed through the gills of fish, ammonia is given off, in addition to carbon dioxide. Fish waste, in addition to excess fishfood and plant debris is broken down by heterotrophic bacteria into additional ammonia. In the natural habitats in the Amazon and Africa where our hobbyist fish evolved, this ammonia is constantly washed away and diluted by thousands of gallons of fresh water at essentially zero ppm ammonia levels (unlike what might be found in our polluted industrial waterways where our tropicals wouldn't be found to begin with of course.) Ammonia, even in tiny amounts, and even in species that are tolerant of it, causes gill damage that leads to shortened lives or death in worse cases.

As hobbyists know, our first species of autotrophs, Nitrosomonas spp., convert ammonia into nitrite(NO2.) Nitrite, even in tiny amounts, attaches readily to the hemoglobin protein found on the red blood cells of fish blood, just as if it were oxygen. The nitrite combines with the hemoglobin to break down the red blood cell and destroy it. This process can actually be observed by scientists visually as the red blood cells turn to brown mush. Some species, such as various catfish species can acually survive a fair amount of this mis-treatment but it is certainly not a condition they thrive in or presumably would enjoy. Nitrite poisoning's first effect is nerve damage, with brain damage leading other peripheral damage and showing up in nearly all cases as shortened longevity or death. The fact that looking at fish doesn't show one all these does not mean they aren't happening. They are.

Thirdly, the "bottled" bacteria products: Here I think the jury is out, but in our forum we try to help beginners realize that it can be expensive and frustrating to participate in a random and uncontrolled experiment to see if someday there will be a bottled product that works reliably. Most of our hesitation here is due to the hundreds of cases we see here each year that have no positive results in terms of time saved. In the case of at least one product, one of our members was even successful in persuading one of the staff at the company to admit that the "process" actually consisted of the dead organic matter in the bottle being converted by the heterotrophic bacteria into ammonia.. meaning that the company considered the product to be an indirect ammonia source! One of the best researchers in the field, Tim Hovanec, feels that a bottled product can work, so there's always hope out there, but so far, the actual hobbyist experience with bottled or refridgerated products is almost never different from controlled fishless cycling time frames.

Personally, I find the fact that fishless cycling simply -removes- the possibility of harming the fish significantly and the reduction in water changes to be the two most compelling arguments for fishless cycling. I also happen to find it rather fascinating from a practical application standpoint and quite enjoy it, compared to my years of watching some of my fish die when I was young and the process didn't exist. We all know that the adoption of new knowledge and change can take generations, but at least forums like this one can serve as an aid to that gradual learning.

~~waterdrop~~
 
Waterdrop you have a way with words that i will never have, i am new to the hobby and can understand the importance now of a fishless cycle. Had it not been for this forum i am sure i would be going out and purchasing fish to replace the ones that had died due to lack of knowledge,

I can only thank this forum and its members for being so helpful. I have posted questions and all have been answered within minutes of posting and so far (touch wood) all have been correct in what i am being given as an answer.

Please think about what the experienced members are giving as advice as they have been doing this hobby for alot longer than 5 years, if they can be educated from their ways of doing things back then, then the advice given can only be good advice and for the health of your fish.

:good: to TFF
 
What's wrong with providing the new pets under your care, the tropical fish, with the kind of environment they thrive in and not the type of environment that's increasingly driving their species to extinction?

This thread brings together three common fallacies on display for our beginners:
1) That fish-in cycling situations are shorter and easier than fishless cycling.
2) That fish are not harmed by fish-in cycling situations.
3) That bottled bacteria products are an easy solution to cycling.

The main limiting factors in speeding up the creation of a working biofilter are the actual slow rates of biofilm construction and cell division and colony formation of the two autotrophic species needed for the filter to become operational. The source of food, the ammonia, does not change these limits. A fish-in cycle takes just as long as a fishless cycle but is just less controlled because the aquarist has less direct control over the amounts and dose timing of the ammonia. It would be difficult to place controls on how much water fish move through their gills or how much they pee and when.

As far as ease of biofilter preparation (or cycling as we call it,) its a pretty subtle difference between a good fishless cycle and a well-performed fish-in situation. The main headache for fish-in is the greater number of large water changes that must be performed in an attempt to limit the amount of damage to the fish. In a well-performed fish-in, the number of fish and their size will be tiny compared to the tank volume, which will lower the size and number of water changes for the hobbyist but will drag out the process for a longer time. Very few beginner fish-in cycles are well-performed. In most cases the number of fish used is much to large from the get-go. Once a hobbyist has successfully performed a fishless cycle it becomes more obvious to them why the fish-in practices became old-school back in the 1980s.

Secondly, its a myth that fish are not harmed by fish-in cycling situations. This, I believe, has been pretty well-understood by ichthyologists for decades. Even young aquarists often have some early experiences with healthy-looking fish dying that help them to realize that visual inspection by humans bears little to no relation to what fish are experiencing or what the state of their long-term health is. While it is quite true that tolerance (the capacity for enduring) of ammonia and nitrite(NO2) varies greatly by species, there are still some fundamentals that are well-understood.

When water passed through the gills of fish, ammonia is given off, in addition to carbon dioxide. Fish waste, in addition to excess fishfood and plant debris is broken down by heterotrophic bacteria into additional ammonia. In the natural habitats in the Amazon and Africa where our hobbyist fish evolved, this ammonia is constantly washed away and diluted by thousands of gallons of fresh water at essentially zero ppm ammonia levels (unlike what might be found in our polluted industrial waterways where our tropicals wouldn't be found to begin with of course.) Ammonia, even in tiny amounts, and even in species that are tolerant of it, causes gill damage that leads to shortened lives or death in worse cases.

As hobbyists know, our first species of autotrophs, Nitrosomonas spp., convert ammonia into nitrite(NO2.) Nitrite, even in tiny amounts, attaches readily to the hemoglobin protein found on the red blood cells of fish blood, just as if it were oxygen. The nitrite combines with the hemoglobin to break down the red blood cell and destroy it. This process can actually be observed by scientists visually as the red blood cells turn to brown mush. Some species, such as various catfish species can acually survive a fair amount of this mis-treatment but it is certainly not a condition they thrive in or presumably would enjoy. Nitrite poisoning's first effect is nerve damage, with brain damage leading other peripheral damage and showing up in nearly all cases as shortened longevity or death. The fact that looking at fish doesn't show one all these does not mean they aren't happening. They are.

Thirdly, the "bottled" bacteria products: Here I think the jury is out, but in our forum we try to help beginners realize that it can be expensive and frustrating to participate in a random and uncontrolled experiment to see if someday there will be a bottled product that works reliably. Most of our hesitation here is due to the hundreds of cases we see here each year that have no positive results in terms of time saved. In the case of at least one product, one of our members was even successful in persuading one of the staff at the company to admit that the "process" actually consisted of the dead organic matter in the bottle being converted by the heterotrophic bacteria into ammonia.. meaning that the company considered the product to be an indirect ammonia source! One of the best researchers in the field, Tim Hovanec, feels that a bottled product can work, so there's always hope out there, but so far, the actual hobbyist experience with bottled or refridgerated products is almost never different from controlled fishless cycling time frames.

Personally, I find the fact that fishless cycling simply -removes- the possibility of harming the fish significantly and the reduction in water changes to be the two most compelling arguments for fishless cycling. I also happen to find it rather fascinating from a practical application standpoint and quite enjoy it, compared to my years of watching some of my fish die when I was young and the process didn't exist. We all know that the adoption of new knowledge and change can take generations, but at least forums like this one can serve as an aid to that gradual learning.

~~waterdrop~~

Well put WD :good:
 
I'd just like to say that waterdrop and arobinson are spot on.

The tank WILL get cycled one way or another (presuming it has a filter). But a fishless cycle is easier in both the short term and long run.

I know this has already been covered...but in short...
Ammonia and Nitrites are toxins, whether the fish show symptoms straight away or not will be dependant on the specific fish. We're looking at biological things here...so there will be some variation.
But in the same way people will be poisoned by say...arsenic.
Fish will be poisoned by the Ammonia and Nitrites, it leads to premature death in ALL cases. Literally due to the nature of the poisons, the only thing that varies is HOW premature the deaths are. More often than not we see fish that are meant to live for 2 years or more, dying within days...and some people come on here after a few months saying 'all my fish just started dying for no reason', often we ask if they cycled it before adding fish, and almost 100% of the time they will reply with 'no'.

When you've been around these forums for awhile (eg's being Waterdrop and Arobinson imparticular), you notice these patterns. And although you see rare cases where the fish survive to the proper lifespan. If it was plotted on a graph then you would get a clear correlation which back up what we were saying.

1 persons 5 year + experience is actually less valid (when making conclusions) than 5 peoples 1 year experience. And we're going on 100's if peoples experiences...and many many many years of those experiences! :)
 
Thankfully some more experienced fish hobbyists have come to put their point across.

Obviously, it doesnt matter what we say, you may simply ignore everybodys posts and go on with your own way, but remeber when things go wrong, this forum is more than likely the first place you will turn to.

And waterdrop, you sure do have a certain way with words :good:

Andy
 
Wow, alot to read and take in.

Yes my goldfish tank has been up and running for around 6 month now all okay, apart from a poorly pleco dieing, due to pets at home i believe.

How would i get the bacteria from that filter into the new one? By filter media im presuming you mean the filter pads ... ? Would i just leave one of the pads in the new tank for a few hours? Also, can you buy the tap safe/stress coat in bulk as with this size of tank its going to be a bottle or so a month!

When the tank is ready for fish i only want to add a few species at a time to get the tank fully matured. What would be the best to put in the tank first?

Thank you for all your help.

Danny
 

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