New To Discus, Advise Required

[michaelwgroves]

EDIT to add; Just seen your last reply regarding RO. No, you cannot use it neet, as it will kill the fish sooner or later. You need to use a mineral retopic to replace the minerals stripped from the water. This is quite fidely and only something you want to be doing if you understand water chemistory IMO

So I take it your not using RO, or maybe a mix ?

I need to get my head around these 50% water changes.
Just been reading through previous posts in this thread, I know the water changes are designed to keep the nitrate low. One of the reasons I have heavy plant growth in my tank for that reason. I like to work with mother nature to balance my aquarium. I typically do 10% a week and my nitrate is 10.
So are there any other reasons for massive water changes other than nitrate reduction?

 

[rabbut]

Retopping minerals used by fish and remoing phosphate, growth hormones and Disolved Organics are mongst the many reasons for a waterchange regiem. Growth hormone remoal would be key with younger discus as if they build-up they may stunt the youngh fish. Adults are less likely to be affected with skimped waterchanges, but less frequent changes with youngh fish will be a real issue.

In short, waterchanges are not always just to control nitrate.

To answer your other question, I use 100% tap water for mine. RO may be needed in some cases, but what you use for waterchanges will depend upon your tap water stats

All the best
Rabbut

 

[michaelwgroves]

Just finished doing my tank mates stats, please see below;
Got these stats from [URL="http/"http/www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/a-z_comm.htm""][url="http/www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/a-z_comm.htm"]http/www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/a-z_comm.htm[/URL][/url]

Based on these stats none of my fish are compatible, even though everyone keeps cardinal tetra with Discus!
Apparently the ideal temp for an adult is 29.

Found a really good brief article [URL="http/"http/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphysodon""][url="http/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphysodon"]http/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphysodon[/URL][/url] worth a read
snip "Actually, maintaining acidic water is always beneficial to these fish because the ammonia which is an ever present danger in contained fish living quarters, is unable to form in a pH under 6.9. At pH 6.9 and lower it begins to convert to ammonium, which is a form more easily tolerated by the fish"

I'm thinking get rid of my last 2 Silver Dollars, bring my temperature up to 27, my ph down to 6.9 and buy 6 - 10 Discus.

I found another breeder closer to me [URL="http/"http/www.devotedly-discus.co.uk/acatalog/Visit_Us.html""][url="http/www.devotedly-discus.co.uk/acatalog/Visit_Us.html"]http/www.devotedly-discus.co.uk/acatalog/Visit_Us.html[/URL][/url]
Anyone heard of them, any thoughts?


__________________________ph___temp
________________________min max min max

Discus___________________6.0 6.5 26-30

50 Cardinal Tetra________________22-26
2 Harliquin Tetra__________6.0 6.5 22-26
1 Glowlight Tetra__________6.0 7.5 22-26
6 Mollies_________________7.5 8.5 20-26
6 Cherry Barbs____________6.5 7.5 23-26
2 Clown Loaches__________6.0 7.0 24-30
1 Yo-Yo Loaches__________6.5 7.8 23-26
3 Opaline Gouramis________6.2 7.8 20-30
1 Silver Angel___________________24-28
1 Koi Angel_____________________24-28
9 Rummie Nose Tetra______6.0 7.0 22-26
6 Corydoras _____________7.0 7.0 20-26
10 Otas
3 Bristlenose ____________6.5 7.5 21-26
10 Amano Shrimps
1 Kuhli Loach
2 Silver Dollar__________________24-28
6 Conga Tetra
3 Silver Shark___________6.5 7.0 22-28
3 Redline Torpeado_______6.5 7.5 18-25
4 Flying Fox_____________6.5 7.0 24-26
1 Black Knife Ghost Fish
50 Kribensis_____________6.5-8.0 24-27

 

[rabbut]

A stable pH is more important that one in the ideal range with tank breds. Do not forget this if you do move the pH. Don't use adjusting chemicals to swing it, as the pH will be in constant swing with those chemicals and keep a track of KH if using RO to lower, so that the pH does not "crash"

Cardinals won't be listed as ideal as they age more quickly in higher temperatures, but otherwise they are fine, provided sufficient oxygen levels.

I believe me, Discuslova and Mike posted our thoughts on your stocking earlier, or am I thinking of another thread?

The temperature must be at or above 28c or you will get constant issues with internal and protazoan parasites. I speak from expreience there. Idealy, go for about 30 Any fish that are listed as OK on here without being challenged by another member will be able to take that heat, or we wouldn't have said they were fine

All the best
Rabbut

 

[michaelwgroves]

I'm injecting co2 and using a ph mionitor to keep it constant, so adjusting to 6.9 is no problem.

You did mention about my stocking earlier and I will be taking your advise on some fish, although I have read others discus keeps do keep discus with Conga Tetra etc, so I'm gonna suck it and see on some species, but the Silver Dollars are definity going.

I'm going to aim for 29c and see where I go from there.

Going forward, what are good tank mates for Discus, from what I can see most Dwarf Cichlids and Rainbow fish seem to be compatible?

Finally dropped Chens Discus an email last Friday and I still have not heard from them, also sent an email to one of the links on thier web site and not heard from them, not very good service so far

I'm going to drop Devotedly Discus in Polegate an email, see if they get back to me.

 

[rabbut]

Divotedly Discus is supposed to be good as well as Chens I use work now for discus, and QSS based in Bradford, but they don't do mail order and usualy go down with Flukes in QT... This said they are good quality fish and Flukes are easy to deal with using "black market" meds like Flubenol and certain other Flubendazole/metrodanizole based meds

Rainbow are a bit of a grey area TBH. Some will be fine (dwarf species) but larger ones like Bosmani rainbown can be a problem, outcompeeting the Discus for food stressing due to quick movement. Again, it realy depends on the individual fish concerned. It will work with some, but not otheres

Just watch the CO2 levels, as well as the pH when dropping pH with CO2. Idealy you don't want to be running CO2 when you introduce fish, and then gradually re-introduce the gas once the fish are in 30ppm of CO2 is usualy considered the safe limit with good surface agetation. This will lead to more CO2 gassing off, but the alternative is high CO2 levels and low oxygen levels and that will lead to disaster Discus are large fish with equaly large oxygen demads, so they will be once of the first to go in that scenario, but last to show symptoms

All the best
Rabbut

 

[michaelwgroves]

I had some Flubenol-15 a few years ago, worked for me, then when I went back for some more the web site had closed down, just had another look for it but can't find anything, can you still buy it?

I have fairly good surface agetation, but I have never measured my CO2, what is the most accurate way to test my CO2 level?
I assume good plant growth = good oxygen levels?

 

[rabbut]

I had some Flubenol-15 a few years ago, worked for me, then when I went back for some more the web site had closed down, just had another look for it but can't find anything, can you still buy it?

Not legaly in the UK Blooming EU regulations...

I have fairly good surface agetation, but I have never measured my CO2, what is the most accurate way to test my CO2 level?
I assume good plant growth = good oxygen levels?

The most accurate way of monitoring CO2 is with a 4dKH drop checker. Green=30ish ppm Anything else is not good, either too much or too little, but I cannot rember which way arround it is now...

There are also liquid drop test kits for CO2, but they don't keep a constant check, and some question their accuracy...

Good plant growth = good oxygen (usualy) during the day, but plants give off more CO2 at night while consuming O2, so the advserse is often true at night, and that could lead to the tank chocking itself with CO2 at night if agetation is low, as gass exchange may not be high enough to remove is as quickly as the plants produce it

All the best
Rabbut

 

[michaelwgroves]

Sorry I don't understand the 4dKH drop checker, I have a test kit which reads a dkH of 7, is this what you mean?

 

[rabbut]

No, a 4dKH drop checker, has a fluid with a constant hardness of 4dKH, seporated from the tank water by a gas bubble, into which pH regent is mixed. With more CO2 in the water, more CO2 moves into the 4dKH-pH-regent fluid, through the gas seporation bubble, altering its colour. A quick google search should throw up plenty of hits for them

 

[michaelwgroves]

Thanks, done some research on CO2 levels, George Farmer recommends levels of CO2 are 20 to 35ppm.

I found a calculator online, no need for a 4dKH drop checker, I have ph 6.9 and kh 7 so my CO2 is 26ppm

"The formula used for this calculation is: CO2 (in PPM) = 3 * KH * 10[sup]( 7-pH )[/sup] where KH is Carbonate Hardness in degrees"
Or you can cheat like me and use the online calculator, this is also a really good read.

[URL="http/www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm"]http/www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm[/URL]

I've learnt a lot in this thread, thanks particularily to Rabbut.

So my aim is to give a few fish away, raise the temp and then get 10 Discus.

Can you recommend a hardy strain for my first go?

 

[rabbut]

Any "fancy tank breds" will be best. Wilds need more care with water quality than tank-bred strains, but otherwise Waterquality is the most common fault in discus tanks, so best to go with the strains that are resiliant to that isssue IMO. Heckles in particular are to be avoided by a discus "newbie", though some report suscess with wild browns and greens after a few tank generations if you want natural colour. Wild caught stock will need RO in almost all cases to get the pH and hardness just right. Tank breds do not need this unless breeding

The cheapest types should be Turks, as they are most common. People pay silly money for real good quality hackles, marbolos and some pidgeon blood strains, though run of the mill pidgeons and malbros are probibly next cheapest

The benefits of a drop checker is that it is a constant monitor, rather than a weekly check. IME things can go wrong with CO2 dosing real fast. It only takes a knock of the pH controler/regulator by unsuspecting people/pets to cranck up the dosage and start upsetting livestock. If I see gasping, I'd rather see the CO2 level on the spot and eliminate it before identifying waterquality or disease as the issue. CO2 overdose requires no waterchange, just an airline to solve, where the other two need a Waterchange on the spot, which isn't always good.

All the best
Rabbut