New Tank, Cycling At The Moment

[scouse_andy]

I recently bought a Juwel Rio 240. I've been doing a fishless cycle for a week now with some media from my other tank to help, the temperature up to the high 80's and a couple of airstones to help the circulation.

The ammonia is already dropping from 5ppm to 0 in 12 hours, just waiting on the nitrites to drop before I do my big water change and get busy! (a couple of weeks I'm guessing)

I'm planning to buy an easy planting collection from Greenline to put straight in when it has cycled. I have silica sand bought from my LFS as my substrate. Is this suitable for rooting plants or do I need some gravel or pebbles in places to help them root? Also I am getting some Pro Aqua plant fertiliser bags from Greenline, I have arcadia T5s with reflectors for light, is it worth getting some CO2 in there too ar will the light and fertiliser be sufficient?

I plan to stock the following fish: 6 Danio (3 leopard, 3 zebra), 6 Harlequin Rasbora, 6 Glass Bloodfin Tetra, 6 Cherry Barbs, 6 Sterba's Corydoras, 6 Chain Loaches and 3 Pearl Gouramis (1m, 2f). Can anybody see any compatibility problems here? I have a pH of 7.2 and will be running at 25-26 C. Chain Loaches are hard to find and also less hardy so I'll wait for things to mature for a good while yet, same with the pearl gouramis, I'll wait til the filter is properly mature.

How would my stocking levels be when this lot is in? Slightly under I suspect. I have the standard Juwel filter and will stock fairly slowly and it will be heavily planted which I believe helps the water quality in the long run. If I am considerably under could anybody suggest any other fish which would suit, preferably a small shoal of something or perhaps I ought to go for a larger number of fish in a shoal of something I am already planning on (e.g. more harlequins) What do you think?

I'd be really interested in people's advice and opinions, I only started with fish at Christmas when I got a Biorb 30 litre so I am very much a beginner but very willing to learn as much as possible.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

a. Sand is great for plants, actually better than gravel in my experience, i would keep it as it is .
b. With the stocking, i would not advise keeping male and female pearl gourami's together as the males can be quite tempermental/agressive towards the females at times- personally i would just go for a trio of females as they will be more likely to get along with each other than the males.

Gourami's and danio's do not make ideal tankmates as danio's are very active and fast fish which can be nippy towards certain types of fish at times, while gourami's are slow swimmers and a lot more laid back.
Gourami's do best when kept in tanks stocked with very peaceful and not particularly active fish in a tank which has a gentle to medium strength current from the filter, they do best in very planted tanks whose plants grow tall reaching from the bottom to the top- floating plants are also good. Pearl gourami's are very much tropical fish and temps ranging from 24 to 28 degree's are best for them.
Danio's such as zebra or leopard danio's on the other hand are the opposite- they are very active and fast swimming fish, enjoying the big open spaces in the tank and prefer only a small amount of planting in the tank. They are technically sub-tropical fish, temps between 20-23 degree's are best for them which is a fair bit cooler than what the pearl gourami's prefer, zebra/leopard danio's do best with tankmates of similar personality to them or which do not interupt their day to day lives much. They can be quite nippy towards fish with long flowing fins like betta's and can sometimes nip the feelers of the much slower swimming gourami's- some people have success keeping these types of fish together, but they prefer very different habitats/environments so do not make the best tank mates either way regardless of how well they get along.
So i would personally choose between having the gourami's or the danio's but not both .
Bloodfin tetra's are very much sub-tropical fish, although very hardy like the danio's, they are best kept in the much cooler tropical temps- personally i would not have them based on the temp alone unless you are planning on having a sub-tropical tank where these fish will be appreciated most (they'll be healthier, much more active and have more vibrant colouring etc in the cooler tropical temps) .

 

[rdd1952]

I'm certainly no expert on barbs but from what i have read, cherry barbs are somewhat shy and may not like the very active danios. Hopefully someone else can shed some more light on that. I think the loaches are considered semi-aggressive so they could also be a slight issue with the barbs and gouramis but once again, hopefully someone with more knowledge of them will either correct me or verify.

As for the sand, it should be fine for your plants. I have always used sand in all my tanks. The roots will also help keep the sand loose and prevent any gas pockets from forming. The general rule on lighting is at least 2 watts per gallon which is almost impossible to get with flourescent tubes but for the low light plants they should be fine.

 

[scouse_andy]

Thanks for your help. Glad the sand is going to be OK because I was a bit worried I may have to dig things up and add some extra substrate.

I will have a rethink on the Danio and the bloodfin tetra then, I didn't realise the danio were so nippy. Can anybody recommend some peaceful shoaling fish which are happy at 25-26 C and can manage on a pH of 7.2 (neon tetra prefer alkaline water I think)?

Also, on the loach issue, I thought chain loach kept small and hadn't heard they were aggressive, are they likely to upset things in my tank do you think?

Cheers, Andy.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Thanks for your help. Glad the sand is going to be OK because I was a bit worried I may have to dig things up and add some extra substrate.

I will have a rethink on the Danio and the bloodfin tetra then, I didn't realise the danio were so nippy. Can anybody recommend some peaceful shoaling fish which are happy at 25-26 C and can manage on a pH of 7.2 (neon tetra prefer alkaline water I think)?

Also, on the loach issue, I thought chain loach kept small and hadn't heard they were aggressive, are they likely to upset things in my tank do you think?

Cheers, Andy.

Glolight tetras should be ideal for your tanks ph and setup if you are going planted;

http/badmanstropicalfish.com/profiles/profile62.html

.

 

[scouse_andy]

The Glowlight tetra look like a really good recommendation - thanks for that. I'll aim for a decent size shoal of them, 10 maybe?

I may also double up on the harlequins to make 12.

That would make 6 Sterbai Cory, 6 chain loach, 6 cherry barb, 10 glowlight tetra, 12 harlequin rasbora and some centrepiece fish (3 female pearl gourami possibly). Can anybody see any compatibilty problems here?

Anybody recommend a different centrepiece fish maybe... something very peaceful.

Also anybody think the chain loach would be aggressive? I think I may have trouble finding them, don't remember seeing them in any LFS but they get so many good comments when I've been reading the forums.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

The Glowlight tetra look like a really good recommendation - thanks for that. I'll aim for a decent size shoal of them, 10 maybe?

I may also double up on the harlequins to make 12.

That would make 6 Sterbai Cory, 6 chain loach, 6 cherry barb, 10 glowlight tetra, 12 harlequin rasbora and some centrepiece fish (3 female pearl gourami possibly). Can anybody see any compatibilty problems here?

Anybody recommend a different centrepiece fish maybe... something very peaceful.

Also anybody think the chain loach would be aggressive? I think I may have trouble finding them, don't remember seeing them in any LFS but they get so many good comments when I've been reading the forums.

Hmm, i don't know a great deal on chain loaches, but www.loaches.com is a very good site and their info has always been spot on in my experience and in their profile of the loaches, there isn't any mention of them being agressive;

http/www.loaches.com/species-index/yasuh...kia-sidthimunki

.

 

[Dave Spencer]

The general rule on lighting is at least 2 watts per gallon

To be honest, I would go for lower than 2WPG if I were you, unless you are prepared to go for pressurised CO2, water column fertilisation and heavy planting. Light at these levels is a serious algae trigger. Good luck with the tank.

Dave.

 

[scouse_andy]

I'm going with 2 Juwel lights which are made specifically for the tank at 38 watts each plus reflectors. I think that 240 litres is about 65 gallons right? I'm putting some floating plants on the top, which I believe reduce algae and also planting quite heavily and using pro aqua fertiliser bags. Is this likely to reduce algae? I'm also stocking with corys which eat algae don't they? If I do have a problem I could always put in a CO2 unit later anyway... how much would I be looking at for one of those and do you think I'm likely to need it with a heavily planted tank but fairly easy care plants.

 

[rdd1952]

I'm also stocking with corys which eat algae don't they?

Corys don't eat algae. They are scavengers and will clean up the food that makes it to the bottom of the tank.

I don't know that floating plants reduce or prevent algae (never had any so maybe they do). Algae growth is dependent on more than just light. Overfeeding is another main cause of algae and it's usually too much light and overfeeding in combination that is the problem. Also, gouramis are labyrinth fish and breathe from the surface like bettas so they must have free surface area to breathe.

With the lighting you will have, you will need to stay with low light plants as you will only have a little over 1 wpg and with the floating plants, a lot of that isnt' going to make it to the bottom plants.

 

[Dave Spencer]

I'm going with 2 Juwel lights which are made specifically for the tank at 38 watts each plus reflectors. I think that 240 litres is about 65 gallons right?

You are probably somewhere around mid light levels, so apart from most red plants and carpetting plants, you should be able to make a fair stick of growing some nice stem plants. I always recommend reflectors for lights.

I'm putting some floating plants on the top, which I believe reduce algae and also planting quite heavily and using pro aqua fertiliser bags. Is this likely to reduce algae?

A healthy, thriving mass of plants is the most potent method of keeping algae away, but floating types may eventually block out too much light. The key to defeating algae in a heavily planted tank is to always think about what your plants need, not what you can deny algae, and keep things stable. Anything you deny algae you are also denying your plants, and it is the algae that will respond to these changes more quickly and thrive.

If I do have a problem I could always put in a CO2 unit later anyway

Plants will always benefit from CO2, but it only becomes necessary at around the 2WPG mark.

Light is the greatest single germination trigger for algae. Put a glass of RO in direct sunlight and see what happens.

Remember, by planting a tank with sufficient plants and tend to their requirements, you need not worry about algae.

Dave.

 

[SouthernCross]

The Glowlight tetra look like a really good recommendation - thanks for that. I'll aim for a decent size shoal of them, 10 maybe?

I may also double up on the harlequins to make 12.

That would make 6 Sterbai Cory, 6 chain loach, 6 cherry barb, 10 glowlight tetra, 12 harlequin rasbora and some centrepiece fish (3 female pearl gourami possibly). Can anybody see any compatibilty problems here?

Anybody recommend a different centrepiece fish maybe... something very peaceful.

Also anybody think the chain loach would be aggressive? I think I may have trouble finding them, don't remember seeing them in any LFS but they get so many good comments when I've been reading the forums.

Can I ask why 3 females when you could have a trio (one male, two female)? I've ALWAYS been advised to stock gouramis in this ratio - I've been told they'll show great colours when they're trying to flirt with each other, and watching them interact is also fun. Having two females to a male means he isn't hitting on one ALL the time, so each gets a break and they don't stress .

I'm actually having trouble finding females in LFS's around here to go with my male - they prefer to stock the males because they show a bit more colour. The males have orange throats and slightly longer fins. With all males though you might have territory issues - although pearls are one of the most peaceful. But why take the risk when a M/F/F trio is known to work well.

I don't know much about barbs, but aren't some supposed to be nippy? Gouramis have long feelers so you might want to watch out for that.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Keeping males with females can make their colours come out more and can work, but the males can have a tendancy to bully weaker fish and even be agressive towards the females- female pearls are a lot more sociable and safer to keep together, so this is what i would personally do.
Cherry barbs are very peaceful fish though, its mostly barbs like tiger barbs you have to worry about .

 

[scouse_andy]

Thanks for all your suggestions and help.

Thanks Dave for all your info on plants. I was going to put in a couple of floating plants as I've heard it offers good shelter to fish that swim at the top but I guess a well planted tank with tall background plants would achieve the same. I was not after a carpet look at the front as I want to keep some open areas of sand interspersed with foreground plants so I think I'll be ok with those lights. Do the Pro Aqua fertiliser bags make a big difference too?

I think I'll stick with my plan of three female pearl gourami, the females look very attractive in their own right.

I have also been toying with possibly adding some livebearers to my finished tank. Which would be better for a temp of around 25 degrees and the tankmates I have already suggested? Swordtail or Platy? Are they both peaceful enough for the other tankmates?

Cheers, Andy.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I have also been toying with possibly adding some livebearers to my finished tank. Which would be better for a temp of around 25 degrees and the tankmates I have already suggested? Swordtail or Platy? Are they both peaceful enough for the other tankmates?

Cheers, Andy.

Well these are the positive and negative points of keeping swordtails and platys in general;

Swordtail positive points;
a. They grow to around 4inches long and came in a wide variety of colours and make very attractive fish, only the males posses the swords though on thier tails, the females do not.
b. They are quite hardy fish and can adapt to a variety of ph's and tank set ups as long as the tanks stocking and size is suited to them and the water quality is good.
c. They are peaceful fish to keep if care is put into stocking the males or females and their tankmates are suited to them. They generally don't bother other fish in the tank and keep to their own kind in general.

Swordtail negative points;
a. Like a lot of other livebearers, females can give birth to a lot of fry on a regular basis, sometimes more than 30fry every month or so. Thankfully though the vast majority of fry are often all or almost all eaten by the adults and other fish in the tank. Dealing with unwanted fry is easy if you are willing to euthanise or raise them, but if left unchecked the number of fry surviving in the tank can increase, leaving the tank overstocked if the situation is not dealt with.
b. Female swordtails and mollys can be difficult to distinguish between each other if you are not very familiar with keeping them- in my experience female swordtails tend to be a little more slender and longer looking than female mollys, and can also come in patterns and colours that are not present in mollys. However its still very important to make sure that what you have are female swordtails and not mollys.
c. Male swordtails cannot be kept together in mixed gender groups unless the amount of females you have is an exceptionally large (like 15 or more) group of females, it is only advised you have one male amoungst your females- you should have at least 2-3females for your male sword. Females can be kept together in all-female groups, but i am not sure of the success rates of keeping males together in all-male groups.
d. Having an all-female group will not nesarsarily prevent them from having fry as females can store sperm from a single mating for up to around 7 pregnancies- considering a lot of female swordtails that come from petshops or the suppliers are kept in mixed gender tanks, most female swordtails you buy will already be pregnant or would have mated with a male recently.

Platy positive points;
a. They grow smaller than swordtails although come in just as wide a variety of colours and patterns, if not more so.
b. Males can be kept together in mixed gender groups as long as there is at least 2-3females per male.
c. They are generally very peaceful fish to keep like the swordtails as long as care is put into their stocking, tank mates and tank environment.
d. Like swordtails, they are quite hardy fish and can adapt to a variety of ph's and tank set ups as long as the tanks stocking and size is suited to them and the water quality is good.

Platy negative points;
a. Like the swordtails, females can produce more than 30fry every month or so sometimes, so similar issues can be faced with what to do with all the fry.
b. Males can be kept together in all-male groups, but such groups are not risk-free and you may still experience agression amoungst them which can be a problem- a lot of people recommend having at least 5male platys in an all-male group to help spread any agression between them. Females, like swordtails, are absolutely fine together in all-female groups though- if you keep just females, you should have at least a trio since platys (like swordtails) are sociable fish and do best with some of their own kind around.
c. Having an all-female group will not nesarsarily prevent them from having fry as females can store sperm from a single mating for up to around 7 pregnancies- considering a lot of female platys that come from petshops or the suppliers are kept in mixed gender tanks, most female platys you buy will already be pregnant or would have mated with a male recently.



Swordtails and platys can also crossbreed with each other, creating platy/swordtail hybrids (sometimes sold in petshops under names like "Jumbo platys"). These two fish are very similar in care, if you go for swordtails you will have to have less of them than if you went for platys as the swordtails grow a fair bit larger than platys.
With appearance, each fish have some things which are unique to each other while other things both species have in common i.e. for example only platys have the "mickey mouse" tail patterning (purebred swordtails do not), while male swordtails obviously have swords on their tails while male platys only have a deferently shaped anal fin to distinguish it from the females. I have only seen swordtails with the pineapple patterning though, havn't seen it on platys at all yet.
Personally i would either have swordtails or platys because they are so similar to each other, but thats just my personal preference. I've never kept swordtails with platys though, only kept platys on their own, so i am not sure how a male swordtail would react to a male platy if they were both being kept in mixed gender groups in the same tank.