New! Little Feedback Please.

[Blue Tigra Mike]

fellow members, first of all i'd like to just say hello and introduce myself, names mike and i've just started about 4 weeks ago with my tropical tank.

Im not here to find the right answer or wrong answer, as i know from past experience everyone speaks there mind and has a different opinion. but in general your feedback is always welcome.

People have told me new tank set up's can be a pain for the first 3 months, while the filter starts to fully work, and that your not supose to overgrowd the tank with fish to start with. however i have bought my fish and its my tank so i will feel fit to do what i like and not what other people say, however i will take on board others views.

theres so many testing kits out there, im currently using API freshwater master test kit, and for the past few weeks my levels have gone up and down like a yoyo. however my tank has manage to settle down, after increasing live plants and not over feeding. i used the nitra zorb for 2 weeks and ever since my nitrate has been hitting 40ppm,now and again hitting 40- 80ppm. my amomonia was high and i lost one fish after purchasing the interpet ammonia remover its worked wonders and now settled at 0ppm. My nitrite is at 0ppm and my ph level is around 6.8 - 7.0 ppm. what else would you recommend to bring down the nitrate, i know its not a toxic so im a lil eased however i stil feel 40 is too high, even thought 3 months isnt upon us yet.

look forward to your views!

 

[gaz gun man]

40ppm is fine.

 

[cowboy507]

it is fine, but if you are worried, do a water change, this will get rid of some of the nitrates.

 

[OldMan47]

The only good way to bring down nitrites, nitrates or ammonia is a water change. Everything else is a way of putting off the day that there will be a crisis in your tank. As you said, you are free to do what you like. While you are doing that, th8nk about your ammonia absorber. It is great at what it does and will remove all of the ammonia in your water until it runs out of the ability. At that point, you will suddenly get what is called a breakthrough of ammonia. That means that the ammonia will suddenly not be getting removed any more. Because you have been so successful at keeping ammonia at zero, there will be no bacteria developed to convert that ammonia into nitrites so the ammonia will just build up. Your options will then be to respond to the crisis with more ammonia remover or to begin a fish-in cycle on your tank. Your current method is just postponing the 3 months of trouble that you have been warned about. In my own opinion, I would rather get the work done so that I can relax and enjoy my tank. Unless you test at least daily, your first warning of an ammonia breakthrough is likely to be a dead fish or two. As you said, they are your fish in your tank and you can do as you please but that does not make your actions either wise or moral.

 

[drobbyb]

The only good way to bring down nitrites, nitrates or ammonia is a water change. Everything else is a way of putting off the day that there will be a crisis in your tank. As you said, you are free to do what you like. While you are doing that, th8nk about your ammonia absorber. It is great at what it does and will remove all of the ammonia in your water until it runs out of the ability. At that point, you will suddenly get what is called a breakthrough of ammonia. That means that the ammonia will suddenly not be getting removed any more. Because you have been so successful at keeping ammonia at zero, there will be no bacteria developed to convert that ammonia into nitrites so the ammonia will just build up. Your options will then be to respond to the crisis with more ammonia remover or to begin a fish-in cycle on your tank. Your current method is just postponing the 3 months of trouble that you have been warned about. In my own opinion, I would rather get the work done so that I can relax and enjoy my tank. Unless you test at least daily, your first warning of an ammonia breakthrough is likely to be a dead fish or two. As you said, they are your fish in your tank and you can do as you please but that does not make your actions either wise or moral.

Some very good observations and advice OldMan47. Water is much cheaper than ammonia absorber and just as effective. Basically anything that takes away the work of keeping a tank usually ends catastrophically.

 

[Blue Tigra Mike]

thanks for the feedback, like i said previously, most of you guys say you have to do it a set way, its bollocks, at the end of the day it works or it goes tits up. then most people learn the hard way.

as for the my tank, i used media from someones else tank whos had dozens of tanks of the years, and does his set ups totally different from me and from most others.

as for the ammonia i can see what your saying, and where your coming from, however after another week my tests are all 100% fine. without adding more chemicals, and more fish have gone into the tank. well see what happens...

 

[K-Holed]

I'd have to agree that there isn't just one way of doing things and many different approaches can lead to the same outcome. However I think it is important to know when someone is just giving their opinion and their way of doing it and when they are refering to facts. Equally we should make sure we don't state our opinions as facts.

 

[Dave Spencer]

thanks for the feedback, like i said previously, most of you guys say you have to do it a set way, its bollocks, at the end of the day it works or it goes tits up. then most people learn the hard way.

BANG BANG….both barrels. You are right what you say, although a mod may remove it due to some dodgy wording.

Unfortunately, this forum generalises way too much at times, and fails to realise that there are several different directions that the hobby can go in. People really need to free their minds, and really should speak a lot more from their own experiences, instead of just repeating what they have from others, who themselves are not speaking from experience either.

I use Zeolite as a means of depriving algae of ammonia in my planted tanks, and it works great in my experience. I always read of claims of how it starves bacteria, leaches ammonia back in to the water etc, etc, etc….. With a little thought put in to the process, they will realise that bacteria will move on to the Zeolite, where there is a large ammonia source, and start feeding off it. Soon, you have a robust colony on the Zeolite, with no leaching. You need to go to more advanced forums for this kind of information, though.

By adding plants, you have also introduced a sizeable bacteria colony to the substrate too. You will hear how little of the bacteria colony populates the substrate, but it will be because people aren`t aware of the relationship between plant root structures and bacteria colonies.

It is a bit of a mystery as to where the ammonia has come from, but then I don`t really trust test kits and never use them. The 40ppm of NO3 should be fine for the vast majority of fauna. A lot of people in the UK have that much straight out of the tap, and have no problems. I actively add nitrates to my tanks, because I keep densely planted, fast growth tanks.

Dave.

 

[drobbyb]

thanks for the feedback, like i said previously, most of you guys say you have to do it a set way, its bollocks, at the end of the day it works or it goes tits up. then most people learn the hard way.

BANG BANG….both barrels. You are right what you say, although a mod may remove it due to some dodgy wording.

Unfortunately, this forum generalises way too much at times, and fails to realise that there are several different directions that the hobby can go in. People really need to free their minds, and really should speak a lot more from their own experiences, instead of just repeating what they have from others, who themselves are not speaking from experience either.

I use Zeolite as a means of depriving algae of ammonia in my planted tanks, and it works great in my experience. I always read of claims of how it starves bacteria, leaches ammonia back in to the water etc, etc, etc….. With a little thought put in to the process, they will realise that bacteria will move on to the Zeolite, where there is a large ammonia source, and start feeding off it. Soon, you have a robust colony on the Zeolite, with no leaching. You need to go to more advanced forums for this kind of information, though.

By adding plants, you have also introduced a sizeable bacteria colony to the substrate too. You will hear how little of the bacteria colony populates the substrate, but it will be because people aren`t aware of the relationship between plant root structures and bacteria colonies.

It is a bit of a mystery as to where the ammonia has come from, but then I don`t really trust test kits and never use them. The 40ppm of NO3 should be fine for the vast majority of fauna. A lot of people in the UK have that much straight out of the tap, and have no problems. I actively add nitrates to my tanks, because I keep densely planted, fast growth tanks.

Dave.

Dave has an odd view on fishkeeping. Like all advice given on here, take it with a grain of salt.

 

[rabbut]

If it works for Dave, great I don't like his reasoning on how it works though...

Plants are great at up-taking Ammonia when settled. What I reckon goes on is that the plants once established out-compete the Zeolite to ammonia, so the Zeolite only removed ammonia until the plants get going and then the tank has all "biological" filtering done by the plants and their phenomenal growth rates under the EI system of plant tanks.

I would not advise using resins and chemical media to do the job of a bio filter, but it can be done.

 

[OldMan47]

Dave runs a lot of plants in his tanks. With or without a filter, a heavily planted tank will run low on all forms of nitrogen. In the higher tech planted tanks, nitrogen is added as a fertilizer because the fish just don't produce enough for good plant growth. Plant folks keep advising me to increase my nitrates to 20 ppm for the sake of good plant growth. I am not surprised when he says his nitrogen load is low but I doubt that the ammonia absorbing chemicals is the reason why. If he tried that in a "normal" tank, he would quickly get into trouble.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

welcome to the forum, the fact that you've used mature media is probably your saving grace, although like most people on this forum i'd advise removing the ammonia remover and allowing the bacteria to develop naturally. looking at risk mitigation here, you maybe find when you remove the ammonia remover that you see a spike of ammonia or nitrite, however if you have a friend with a mature tank then you also have the solution, get some more media from him and you should be fine.

can you let us know what size your tank is and what fish you have in it, this will help us deduce the bio-load on the filter and the likely outcomes of removing the ammonia remover.

as Dave demonstrates there is certainly more than one way to skin a cat, and if it works for him that's grand. I've always wanted to try out a controlled silent cycle just using heavy planting myself. However when advising someone new to fishkeeping I find it's usually best to stick with the tried and tested methods rather than the more experimental ones.

If you are particularly interested in other ways of doing things and are happy to do some research then just give us a shout and we can get some more in-depth stuff up for you.

Oh and really don't worry about 40ppm of nitrate, all the research done points to somewhere around 100ppm being a completely safe level and most hardy fish not showing any ill effects until around 1000ppm. In the UK a lot of people have tap water of around 40ppm and planted tank enthusiasts often add nitrate to this level for their plants as well. Of all the things to worry over in a brand new tank, 40ppm of nitrate is not one of them!

 

[Dave Spencer]

Dave has an odd view on fishkeeping. Like all advice given on here, take it with a grain of salt.

Odd in so far as I speak from experience. Go to an advanced planted tank forum and my views are mainstream and this forum becomes very odd in it`s recommendations when it comes to the planted side.

The use of Zeolite is widespread in the US in particular.

Rabbut, my reasoning is that plants can be established within a single photoperiod in a an environment conducive to their growth, so they are virtually feeding off ammonia from day one. the Zeolite is there to starve/deprive algae in an immature planted tank, then it becomes biological filter media.

Plants themeselves introduce a decent bacteria colony, which is able to quickly establish itself on the Zeolite. I don`t test, but I am sure my fish would let me know if there was ammonia problem.

OM47, my tap water is, unusually for the UK, virtually NO3 free, nothing to do with Zeolite.

I think we all agree that 40ppm NO3 is a non event for the vast majority of fish.

Dave.

 

[drobbyb]

I'm glad that in your experience things work for you Dave. However advanced thinking such as this isn't best fielded on the New to Hobby forum.

 

[rabbut]

Rabbut, my reasoning is that plants can be established within a single photoperiod in a an environment conducive to their growth, so they are virtually feeding off ammonia from day one. the Zeolite is there to starve/deprive algae in an immature planted tank, then it becomes biological filter media.

Plants themeselves introduce a decent bacteria colony, which is able to quickly establish itself on the Zeolite. I don`t test, but I am sure my fish would let me know if there was ammonia problem.

Dave, I know of a fair few people that use plants as their only filtration. I bet if you removed all filter media from your filter in an established planted tank under EI, you would see no spikes, as I know that in heavily planted tanks, in almost all cases, the plants are providing all the filtration of nitrogenous waste.

Think about it, your Nitrate reading drops without dosing it up does it not? Plants prefer to use Ammonia over Nitrate don't they? Therefore, if the plants are using up Nitrate, it's because they have grabbed all the Ammonia out of the water. If the Nitrate is dropping, all the available Ammonia isn't enough for them. I would actually be surprised if you actually needed a filter at all in any of your planted tanks, other than for mechanical filtering and circulation, after the plants have established, a powerhead for circulation would likely keep them running perfectly fine, if you could cope with floating debris in the water...

All the best
Rabbut