New Here And In Desperate Need Of Help!

[vika]

Hello! I'm new here and looking for some answers as I am incredibly stumped. If you are prepare to read a long thread, I will be incredibly grateful for your time, effort, and (hopefully) advice!
 
I have a 5 gallon tank that houses 1 Betta, 2 Oto cats, 3 amano shrimp and 3 assassin snails (that I got because I had an infestation of some tiny snail and figured I would keep them after they took care of the problem).
I do 25% water changes approx. every two weeks.
 
In the last two days, I have double and triple checked my water parameters, and they are coming up fine. I even took a water sample to my local fish store to have it checked just in case my test kit wasn't reading right, and still - everything came up fine, other than my pH being a little on the low side at 6.6 (which my test kit also read).
A couple of nights ago, I had two shrimp, they were both fine, chillin on the glass and swimming around - but then the next morning, I found them dead. Stiff bodies, they have not been attacked by my beta or anything, just simply dead. I've had them for about a week.
Fish store said that it is POSSIBLE that they died because the pH levels were a bit too low for them. So I picked up a pH testing kit along side pH up, and did a little work in raising the pH in my tank through water changes and a little help from the pH up solution. I picked up another oto cat (at the time I only had one and he was lonely), and 3 more amano shrimp. I didn't put them in the water right away, not until the pH was at an appropriate level. Once that was reached and everyone was added, everyone seemed happy for the rest of the evening.
This morning I woke up to both my oto cats almost completely white and dead, two shrimp out of water (both still alive after I put them back in) and ... not sure about the 3rd shrimp. It's possible that it went out of water and perhaps one of my cats got it, but I can't seem to find it in the tank or on the floor.

The tank is heavily planted. I've been having some issues with hair algae for the better part of a couple of weeks so I've been dosing it with Excel every second day to help get rid of it.
My betta fish seems fine. In fact he's the only one that's not having problems.
When I do small water changes, even though I am vacuuming the gravel I always get a quick whif of decay - but when I smell the tank I don't sense anything.

I'm not sure what is happening to my tank. My shrimp are back in the water but are staying close to the surface which is making nervous (and rightfully so). I've considered removing apporx. 2 gallons of water, quarantining the remainding fish/snails and then doing a full tank change, with new substrate and everything.
What could be causing death in my tank, and why are my shrimp trying to find better water conditions, even if all tests have been ok?

 
 

 

[BiggTexx]

The 5 gallon would only be suitable for the shrimp in my opinion, meaning you are overstocked.
 
What kind of filtration are you using?
What are your exact water readings?
1. Ammonia:
2. Nitrite:
3. Nitrate:
4. PH:
5. Hardness:
6. Temperature:
 
Also note that even though the fish did not appear to be eaten, your betta could still be to blame. If he feels crowded, he would attack the shrimp and Oto cats.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Hello and welcome ot the forum.
 
Am afraid there are a couple of issues with your tank that could explain towards what may be occurring with your stocking.
 
The first and most obvious question to ask is - Is your tank cycled?
 
By this i mean, did you cycle the tank to get the relevant bacterias needed to deal with the ammonia and possibly nitrite that will be created by your stocking.
 
This may help if you're unsure what I speak of -  Cycling Your New Fresh Water Tank: Read This First!
 
The second thing i need to mention, you say "I do 25% water changes approx. every two weeks."
This is not enough, especially in a uncycled tank. Even if the tank is cycled, its good practice to do at least 40 - 50% water chenge weekly. This needs to be done so that the stocking and plants can get essential minerals from fresh water which is best to have dechlorinator added to take away any potential harmful toxins from tap water as well as chlorine.
 
And must mention, did you dechlorinate the new water when you do water changes?
 
Water test results are fairly important and having the exct readings helps a great deal in determing if everything as it should be, 0ppm ammonia 0ppm nitrite and 5 - 20ppm nitrate. So your statement of "In the last two days, I have double and triple checked my water parameters, and they are coming up fine." is not particulary helpful, so it would e good if you can provide this information as well as what test kit did you use, a liquid based kit or a paper strip dip kit.
 
The ph at 6.5 is not that low but should not be an issue if this is kept steady and does not fluctuate. Trying to alter water ph, especially in a small tank of 5 gallons is not easy and tends to cause more fluctuations which can prove to be harmful to the stocking.
 
What may prove helpful as well is the gH and kH results, this can be done by looking online at your local water authority for water quality in your area. You could take a sample of water to LFS and they can test this if you specify this. Alternatively you can purchase the gH and kH test kit and test yourself but this is a seldon used test kit which you may only use once or twice.
 
Also what temperature is your tank water normally set at?
 
Dosing excel has to be done carefully, as this is fairly strong and could cause detrimental issues to your plants, tank water and stocking, especially shrimps.
 
Lastly, otos, as already mentioed, are not suitable for a 5 gallon tank, they are active little fish that need swiming space as well as algae to feed on, so that can be hard to feed especially if wild caught.
 
Otocinclus macrospilus

 

[Byron]

I have a few issues to add to what has already been mentioned.  And first, as others said, we definitely need exact numbers for any tests so we can see things better.
 
The cycling issue is possible, but not something I would assume to be the problem here.  If you are doing water changes every two weeks, I am taking that to mean the tank has been running a few weeks.  And regardless, with plants there would not be any cycling issues with the livestock mentioned.
 
The low pH is suggestive.  This usually, but not always, corresponds with softer water, and while this is ideal for Betta and ottos, it is not good for most shrimp.  We need to know your tap water parameters, meaning the GH (general hardness), KH (carbonate hardness also known as Alkalinity) and pH.  You can get this from the water authority, likely on their website, or by calling them.  The GH and KH is not likely to change in the aquarium, but the pH can.  Knowing both the tap water pH and the aquarium water pH may also tell us something.
 
The pH is not the most important parameter with respect to shrimp (or fish for that matter)...the GH is.  But never attempt to adjust the pH without knowing the initial GH and KH and then dealing with these first, if adjustment is necessary.  The KH in particular serves to "buffer" the pH, preventing changes.  Any attempts to adjust the pH with chemicals will likely not be long-term, and a fluctuating pH is far worse on the inhabitants.  Also, it is natural for an aquarium to slowly acidify; here again the GH and KH factor in, and we need to know the levels.  There are safer ways than using chemicals to raise these, and again all three aspects must be dealt with together.
 
I also do not recommend using Excel.  This is a highly toxic chemical [I won't get bogged down with this at present] that under present circumstances will definitely add to the stress of the inhabitants.  The less substances that enter the water, the better, at all times.  And I would up your water changes to no less than once every week; you could do 25-35% of the tank volume weekly with the mentioned inhabitants.
 
Byron.

 

[vika]

Thanks for your replies!
 
 
Water conditions:
Nitrate > 5ppm
Nitrite > 0ppm
gH > 75ppm (very soft)  - my cities tap water gH is apparently around 2. It's a holiday here so I can't call and find out, but from what I've been able to find on google, that seems to be consistent. 
kH > 80ppm
pH > 7.2
Temperature > 24 C
 
The water should be cycled as I've had this tank for about 3 years now. The original oto cat is about 2 years old, the beta is 3, and these shrimp are new (along side the second oto cat), however I've had shrimp before (for a little over a year). Not that it matters but the snails are since May.
I've been using paper test strips, however when I took a water sample to my local supplier they used liquid tests. Their results turned up the same as mine.

 

[Byron]

As it is only the shrimp affected, I am now of the view that it is your soft water.  And this explains why the pH will naturally lower as the water acidifies from biological processes such as the breakdown of organics by bacteria.  So from the standpoint of the aquarium itself, there would appear to be no problem.  The fish store was on the right track in suggesting too low a pH, but as I have hopefully explained, it is actually the low GH that is the real issue, with the pH related.
 
The fish will have no issues, but some species of shrimp need harder water.  The calcium in harder water is used to build their exoskeleton, and without this they will usually slowly die off.  There are some species that apparently do better in soft water, at least so I gather, but I will leave this for the shrimp/planted tank experts to answer.  My own water is much too soft for shrimp, and I have soft water fish so no intention of increasing the hardness.  I did once get two shrimp that arrived in the bag with some pygmy corys (so not intentional acquisition), and they lasted a few months then disappeared.
 
You might want to consider investing in a liquid test kit, as they tend to be more reliable.  The API Master Combo is a good basic kit, having pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.  As I mentioned previously, once you know the GH and KH of your source water it is n ot likely these will change much in the aquarium, unless of course you are specifically targeting them with mineralized substrates or similar.
 
Byron. 

 

[Ch4rlie]

I concur with Byron's assessment.
 
There are a few shrimps that may be suitable for your tank but I question whether to add small shrimps with your betta, unless of course the betta will simply ignore shrimps. Some do some don't.
 
Crystal Shrimps for example may be ok in your tank but they require very clean water, so 50% weekly water changes will be the minimum required an dtemps of 80F is the max for these shrimps, so bear that in mind as your betta requires higher temps than the norm for most shrimps. I'd urge you to take further research before obtaining any shrimps.
 
This site may help you to start with your research into shrimp species - Planet Invert

 

[vika]

Awesome advice everyone!

Is there a way to increase the gH (only slightly, i don't want to stress anyone out) to help keep my shrimp healthy and not affect my betta? I know that Betta's are soft water fish, but they're ok with 70-150 for water hardness.
Or some other way I can give my shrimp some calcium? =\

 

[AmtotheBurr]

I had snails that died when their shells literally disentegrated and I was advised at a fish store to add some plain white school chalk (just a small amount crumbled up in my tank water) I did. He also suggested keeping a few seashells in the tank because when they disintegrate over time it's calcium too. I only did the chalk one time and keep some shells in that 5 gallon and never had another calcium problem again and it's been years now. Not sure if those would work for calcium for shrimp but maybe! And I think a beta in a 5 gal is fine. The other fish I'm not sure about

 

[StevenF]

I had this issue although my shrimp died over a 2 week period.  My water was very soft.  I now add a 50/50 mix of calcium and magnesium carbonate.  I add just enough that a small amount does not dissolve in the water It does not take much to reach that point. before I add it to the tank.  Since that change my currrent shrimp have been in the aquarium of for 3 months and molt regularly..  I also use test strips and my PH, KH, GH (with magnesium and calcium)levels are close to yours.
 
Note, your plants also need calcium and magnesium.  So if your plants are doing well they may have depleted the water of calcium and magnesium.

 

[Byron]

There are preparations you can buy to add the minerals.  Any calcareous substance, like the sea shells mentioned, or rocks like limestone, marble, dolomite, aragonite, and crushed coral will also do the same.  Adding these in the form of sand or gravel composed of them is easy.  The only danger is that sometimes this can be significant.  If one has nothing but shrimp, snails and fish that appreciate harder water, this doesn't really matter.  But when you have soft water species, you can easily exceed the mineral content to the detriment of the fish.  Getting specific GH by natural means is next to impossible without a lot of experimentation, as each aquarium can biologically be different and interactions can affect water chemistry in different ways.  Believe me, Ihave gone down this road for my plants and found it very fluctuating.  So the preparations would be simpler, as they will instruct "x" amount for "x" GH.
 
But, given the soft water fish, finding shrimp that will manage in such water would be kinder to the fish.  Any increase in GH will impact the physiology of the fish.  And while this or that species may manage in slightly harder water, my approach is to provide the most natural water conditiones for the species as this will have the least affect, so the fish will be healthier.  I have very soft water here, so all my fish are soft water fish.  I have plants that will also manage in this (liquid fertilizers are sufficient), and my snails are mainly Malaysian Livebearing which also thrive in soft water.  Shrimp I forget about.
 
Byron.