New Guppies Acting Odd In New Tank

eddb

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I hate to start a new topic

I have a 35L tank (this one here) which I have been running for 8 days using NutraFin Cycle daily and one dose of NutraFin Aqua Plus. I then introduced 5 Guppies last night and I am wondering if their behaviour is normal. They are the first fish in the tank.

They're swimming around the surface mostly and one of them (possibly two) just shed their skins this evening. They occasionally swim rapidly to to the surface. (We have a pond at home and the fish in it behave very differently.)

So I was wondering if anyone else has seen similar behaviour? If so what happened? (I hope nothing bad)
If there are any 'pros' on this forum who could help that'd be awesome too.

Cheers for reading, hope you can help
Edd
 
Hi Edd and welcome to TFF!

Well the answer is you've not cycled your tank and the fish are swimming around in poison unfortunately! We get dozens of new cases a week like this. It comes about because the business model for the tropical fish hobby industry can't sustain the idea that it takes a month or two to prepare a tank environment before its ready for fish. They try to ignore this reality with "bottled bacteria" products like the Nutrafin Cycle or simply by telling you that you were unlucky that the fish died and would you like to buy some more?

Not to worry though, you've come to the right place and the members here will help you out. First, if you're able to take the fish back (temporarily or otherwise) or rehome them to someone else, then that is the very best option because then you can perform a fishless cycle and prepare your tank.

Otherwise you are in what we call a "Fish-In Cycling Situation" and we can't guarantee that the fish will live but we can help you do the best types of emergency actions for this less-than-ideal situation. The problem comes from too much ammonia and nitrite(NO2) and these are diluted via large water changes. You need to change 50% daily to start I'd venture, while we determine what you can do next.

The next most important action is to see if you can get your hands on a good liquid-reagent based water test kit. Most of us in the forum, me included, like and use the API Freshwater Master Test Kit, which has ammonia, nitrite(NO2), pH and nitrate(NO3) test components. Once you get one, test both your tap water and your tank water and post up the results here.

~~waterdrop~~
 
Welcome to the forum EddB. As WD said, you are in a fish-in cycle. It is common enough that I carry around a link in my signature area called Fish-in cycle that will lead you to a thread that will help you understand your current situation. The test kit that WD recommended is an essential tool for guiding you through the next month or more. During that time you will do a large partial water change to reduce levels of poisons whenever ammonia or nitrites reach anywhere near 0.25 ppm. In the meanwhile, with the symptoms your fish are showing, I would do a 50% water change and use a dechlorinator on the new water. After that a daily 30% or more water change is in order until you can sample the water and determine that you really don't need to do a water change that day.
 
Hello,

Thanks for the friendly welcome.Tbh I didn't think i'd get an answer for a few days, so it's nice to hear from you so soon. Poisoning my fish is not what i planned :angry: and unfortunately I am going to have to hang on to the fish whilst i/we get this sorted. I woke up nice and early and did the water tests (I felt like a chemist)

From my tank:
Ammonia - between 0.5mg/L and 0.25mg/L
NO2 - 0.25mg/L
NO3 - 10mg/L

From the tap:
Ammonia - between 0.25mg/L
NO2 - 0mg/L
NO3 - 20-40mg/L

Can you tell me what level they should be? Comparing my results to the booklet it says my Ammonia is too high.
Now I have the levels could you possibly give me a step by step guide how to get this sorted? That'd be amazing. You said to remove 50% of the tank's water, would i then replace it with treated tap water? For how long would i need to do this? daily until the tank water is okay?
Please excuse my very amateur questions and the number of them too.

Cheers again.
Edd
 
Hi Edd, you're going to need to do daily water changes of dechlorinated water a similar temp to that of the tank, you're basically diluting the chemicals, ammonia and nitrite should be 0 and nitrate should be a level similar or a little higher than your tap! You made need more than one change a day to bring it down, especially as you go through the different stages of the cycle and get ammonia then nitrite spikes! Check the link 'Fish-in cycle' in Oldman47's signature, it should explain all to you :)
 
Hi again Edd,

Josh has got you covered there with OM47's link to Miss Wiggles thorough article.

It never hurts to hear it several ways though, so I'll ramble on a bit. To answer your question again, its just as Josh said, once the filter is cycled, it should/will maintain ammonia and nitrite(NO2) levels that test as "zero" with your test kit. The nitrate(NO3) level will be somewhat higher than your tap water because the NO3 is what is finally produced as the end-product of what these bacteria do when they process your ammonia and nitrite(NO2.)

In your case (at least initially, since sometimes it takes beginners a while to get the hang of good testing technique) it appears that you've got some ammonia and NO3 in your tap water (must live in the UK? or Chicago, LOL) and I'd suggest you re-test your tap water occasionally (prior to a water change maybe once a week the next few weeks would be good) to see if these excess levels hold up in the tap water. The nitrate(NO3) test is notorious for being difficult to perform (especially for the impatient) as it requires some extreme "shaking" times and even those are basically minimums, so use a timer and get them right.

OK, so what you'll be getting out of the "fish-in cycling" parts of the linked article should be something like this: Your main goal in fish-in cycling is to be a detective of sorts. Your tools are your test kit and your ability to do water changes. What you want to accomplish is keeping ammonia and nitrite(NO2) close to zero, having it only rise to a max of 0.25ppm (yes, both of them, ammonia and nitrite) at which point you magically appear and do another water change for your fish. You're trying to figure out a pattern of water changes and you can vary both the percentage of water changed and the frequency of changes. In your case, you may never be able to get below 0.25ppm because of your tap water, so for you it will have to vary between 0.25 and 0.50ppm assuming that tap measurement holds up. Nitrates(NO3) by the way are not something to seriously worry about for now, so just test them occasionally and note the results in your logbook.

Its not, of course, as hard as all these words make it sound. You will soon see that perhaps one 50% change per day will work, or maybe two for a while, then dropping to one or something like that, maybe even less will do the trick. The point is, you yourself will become a reliable biological filter (poison diluter!) for your fish during this next month or so, keeping their water as fresh as is possible, given your slightly polluted tap water. (By the way, we're talking parts per million here, so its not at all harmful for humans, its just fish are more sensitive than us.)

Meanwhile, the very fact that there is ammonia (regardless of how small the amount) in the water and that the filter is plugged in and moving water through the filter media is going to be providing a great environment for these 2 species of beneficial bacteria you are growing. What they like is food (ammonia) to eat and fresh oxygen (the water flow provides that) and some good surfaces to grow on (your sponges, ceramics, whatever biomedia you have in the filter, provide that) and they will be (slowly) multiplying and making your filter look brown and stained inside (yes, that brown muck is good!)

Let's be sure about your water change technique: You need to use a gravel-cleaner type siphon. It usually has a large clear cylinder that you shuffle into the gravel, to allow the gravel to churn up and the debris in that patch to be pulled up with the water that is draining out of the tank. This clears some of the excess fish waste, excess food and plant debris that are always starting to build up in an aquarium. The siphon can drain out a window or door to a garden or to a bucket or to a drain. Stop at halfway (50%) or whatever you've planned. For the new water you will need to be safe (a good approach I think for beginning cyclers because by definition their bacterial colonies are not robust) by conditioning and temperature matching. Conditioning means following directions on a dechlorination/dechloramination product (Seachem Prime is widely regarded as one of the very best, but almost all are fine) and dosing it as they say or 1.5 times or even 2 times what they say, but not more than 2 times what they say, ok? Temperature matching means the return water should just be roughly matched via your hand so that the incoming new water and the tank water feel pretty close to the same. You can either use buckets (conditioner by the way works instantly) or you can dose conditioner directly in the tank and use a "Python" type hose to fill the tank directly from a temperature mixing tap (in USA we have glass-lined hot water holders, so there is lower worry about excess metals, but many in UK worry about this if their boilers are involved and they heat kettle water.)

Finally, how do you know how long to do all this water changing? Well, eventually (usually one can expect around a month later) you will notice that you don't think either ammonia or nitrite(NO2) are creeping up on you when you come back to test. So you try not doing a water change (and test maybe 12 hours later).. and you keep doing more of this and finally when you find you can go two full days with no water change but your ammonia and nitrite are now staying at zero (by now your bacteria will be eating even all of the ammonia coming from your tap too) then you are essentially cycled. Just keep testing intensively for a week or two to be sure and then ease down on your rate of testing. By the way, all the while during fish-in cycling your fish should be behaving pretty happily (good colors and perky behaviours) because you are now monitoring and providing the nice fresh water they need and want!

(ok, well I rambled on as long as MW does in her article, so I guess we can just hope this will sit out here for you as a little extra reference material, LOL)

~~waterdrop~~ :D
 
Just to throw a point to the guys helping you out, the filter you have contains Zeolite, that's going to mess with your cycle. It will basically un-do all your hard work untill rectifyed...

You either need to cut open the Zeolite catriges and remove the contents, replacing with foam or similar, or replace the whole filter... :sad: Also, ignore any and all instructions to replace the catriges and foams regularly, thats just the manufacturer after your hard earned £...

All the best
Rabbut
 
Guys I don't know what to say the advice has been an awesome help! I've read it over a fair few times now and its making more sense every time i read through.
Sorry I didn't read the previous post by MD, I will search more often. For the record I live in London which will explain the water situation.

--
I am going to change 50% of the water twice a day for a week and test every day (I have the test Kid you all suggggested).
After 7 days lower the water change to once a day. See how it goes. If there is a big change in the Ammonia and NO2 - back to the x2 daily changes for another 3 days or so.
Then as you all suggested see how it goes... perhaps lower the water change to once a day. Whilst continuing the tests. All the while Conditioning the water. If that sounds incorrect or missed anything out please let me know.

I am not going to lie... I did not expect there to be so much work and testing. But I see it as a challenge now!
@Rabbut: what you said is interesting (and crafty); if i took a photo of the inside of the filter could you point out what i would need to remove? Or has this been displayed on forum/web anywhere else?

cheers again everyone
Edd
 
The zeolite will look a lot like carbon but will usually be a white or a very light color. Chances are, if you did not get instructions on using it, it is contained in a filter element of some kind. Maybe a felt bag or something similar. I would read through the instructions that came with the filter. They should say something about one of the filter inserts helping by removing ammonia and / or nitrites. That is the piece that contains the zeolite.
 
Hi again Edd, you can open up your filter and on either side of the outlet near the top, you should see 1 half moon shaped blue basket containing what looks to be gravel on either side. This is the carbon and zeolite mixed together! Both of these will just pull out :good:

Spot em here;
stingRay.jpg
 
Oh dear. Zeolite! awful. Yes, get the zeolite and carbon out of there!

Josh et. al. what do people think would be a good replacement media for these spots in the filter?

~~waterdrop~~
 
I would just like to say something, GET RID OF THAT FILTER...

it took me ages to figure out on another thread why these stingray filters are absolute rubbish(thanks rabbut and wiggles).

rather than the filter creating its own bacteria on the sponges to get rid of ammonia, it does it with Zeolite, so the cycle never really starts, and if it did do the cycle would immediately stop until like me you have problems when the zeolite stops working and fish start to die.

as suggested to me, a fluval 2 plus was perfect for me, but for your tank i think the fluval 1 plus would be suffice(please someone correct me if im wrong).
 
Oh dear. Zeolite! awful. Yes, get the zeolite and carbon out of there!

Josh et. al. what do people think would be a good replacement media for these spots in the filter?

~~waterdrop~~
Well its the upper most layer of filtration so maybe floss? or if its a new tank and you manage to source mature media its a good spot to pop it in, thats my opinion atleast :)
 
basically just about anything is better than the zeolite, if you scroll down the forum you'll see a post from fisses asking for help as he (she? sorry just realised i don't know!) was loosing fish, have a read through that as there's some good explanations of zeolite and the problems it causes in there.

the best replacement would be mature media, do you have any friends with a fishtank or pond? if so tehn ask for something from their filter, a sponge is fairly usual. if you can do this then you should ask fro no more than one third of your friends media from their filter. if they have a sponge it can be cut down to size with scissors. You need to make sure it stays wet in tank water so remove it from their filter, bag it up like you would when buying a fish, take it home and put it in your filter asap. treat it like a bag of fish, do it as quickly as possible and be sure to avoid any extremes of temperature and that sort of thing.

what this will do is their mature media will contain a lovely healthy mature bacteria colony which will kick start your cycle. weather they give you sponge, ceramic shapes or anything else (except zeolite of course!) it really doesn't matter as the fact that it's mature negates the benefits from any specific type of media.

now if you can't get any then what I'd say is because it's a fairly small filter you use the space for more bio media which is most important. get something like fluval bio-max rings, there's loads of different brands and types but basically they're just shapes designed to have the maximum surface area possible which means more places for the bacteria to grow on.
 

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