Never Heard

[Animation]

My fish shop will take on any fish for free soo..

 

[sylvia]

As long as you keep them seperate and sell them seperate, that's fine. Just make sure the LFS knows which are which.

But the thing is, guppies and endler's, like I've said before, don't produce anything special. You can go out to your LFS and buy an endler's hybrid right now (fancy double-sword guppies). That's why I keep saying it's pointless to bother with the hybridizing when you can produce pure endler's instead which are worth so much more (not necessarily money-wise mind you).

I would, if you're looking to hybridize something, try the molly X guppy cross. I thought I'd managed it successfuly once. I'm no longer so shure. I don't keep mollies any more so I'm not in a position to attempt it again myself. Molly hybrids are harmless to wild populations because they are not going to flood the market or the wild and they certainly can't over-take guppies or mollies, plus look significantly different to either parent species.

See? I'm not fully against hybrids or hybridizing - I'm just against this particular cross. The other I've considered is pearl gourami X three-spot gourami - but I wouldn't pass them on in case a mix-up occured somewhere down the line. I've always wondered what fry from this would look like. It's just the tank space that's keeping me (because I'll need to keep them all...)

Anyway, I'll explain how hybridizing fish in captivity (with endler's in mind) can cause harm to wild populations... You breed the hybrids, you're removing pure endler's from circulation within the hobby. People want pure endler's. They can't get pure endler's. So what to do? They take the endler's from the wild. The other way in which they can cause damage is if some do happen to get released into the wild (think of people who flush ). This danger already exists, however, due to all the hybrid fancy guppies. Still, adding to it can't be good.

Unfortunately, people are not as you described. Humanity has never shown much interest in preserving wildlife. Sure, there are organisations and plenty of caring people who want to keep Siberian tigers or orcas alive - but not many care about your average aquarium fish. The thing is, while you or I are willing to give up a patch of land or some of our homebred fish for the sake of wild populations, we are a minority. People simply don't care. Even if more people did care, the number of pure endler's within captivity may not be enough to provide the (genetic) basis for a new population. That's why it's much better to work at preventing wildlife from becoming endangered rather than looking for solutions later on - when it's likely to be too late. You've only to look at Thylacines (Tasmanian tigers) - the last of which died in 1936 in a zoo - to see that, even quite recently, and even with larger animals, we've let wildlife down and looked towards solving a problem once it was all too late.

I'm going to stop lecturing you Sorry about *nearly* losing my temper before. I just want people to realise that they can have a huge impact on wildlife even if what their doing seems to be limmited in it's effects to captivity. Just be aware of what you are doing. Like i said before, your plan to keep the pure endler's seperate from the rest is a good plan. You can sell the rest as guppies (even the hybrids). Just make sure your LFS realises they are different and does not take them all as 'pure' endler's.

 

[aardvarkfromspace]

I think everyone needs to chill out.. do you seriously think this one person hybridising their guppies and endlers is going to lead to the extinction of endlers?

Nobody can be serious.... and if you are serious you need some serious help lol..

I'm sorry to everyone that disagrees, but one person hybridising fish doesn't lead to the extinction of a fish. You can say whatever you want, but nobody is going to convince me that Animation is the endler killer..

Everyone needs to chill though.. Not everyone is going to agree with each other on this topic FOR SURE. Another thing everyone should consider is the age of certain posters.. Take that into consideration!!!

I'd probably just lock this.. There's nothing positive coming!! lol

 

[sylvia]

No one said Annimation is the 'endler killer'. The fact is, if we go by what you just said, one person may not be the 'endler killer' but, if everyone takes the attitude 'one more hybrid breeder won't matter', just where do you think that'll get us? Anyway, I think Annimation has a good plan now and, at the very least, this thread will inform people who consider also breeding endler's hybrids in future.

Having said that, you are incorrect in your assumption that a single person cannot cause the extinction of a whole species (or several for that matter). A fundamental example is the introduction of rabbits in Australia. It was a certain Thomas Austin who caused all the trouble by releasing 24 rabbits onto his land. What about grey squirrels driving red squirrels to extinction or, if you want hybrid issues specificaly, take the mallard duck causing the extinction of various species of duck through hybridization. What about rats or cats or dogs or foxes or any of the various insects or reptiles that have been accidentaly introduced into other habitats and caused the extinction of native species?. Now consider a livebearing fish can produce hundreds of fry and consider how easy it is to accidentaly have some leak into the wild - guppies are perfect examples themselves, in fact, as they are now wide-spread when, once, they only lived in Trinidad/Venezuela. Also cosnider the snakehead incident in the US. True, this does not only apply to hybrids but to any fish, but the point is that a single person CAN have a huge effect on wild populations. Note that this is not an argument against hybridizing - I am simply pointing out where you were wrong.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

frankly, i think a LOT of positive results have come from this discussion--including the persuasion of Animation to not sell hybrids as pure-strain. that sort of deceit dooms efforts to maintain pure captive populations of many types of fish. it only takes one false endler to contaminate a breeding program.

 

[aardvarkfromspace]

''Having said that, you are incorrect in your assumption that a single person cannot cause the extinction of a whole species (or several for that matter).''

Your little ''argument'' has nothing to do with whether or not Animation breeds hybrids.... Rabbits in Australia have nothing to do with whether or not Animation breeds hybrids and sells them.

And Animation never said they would sell their hybrids as pure strain... but even if Animation was going to, would it matter? Some 10 yr old that wants guppies in their tank might get a hybrid ??? I guess that means the end of endlers??

As I said before, nobody is going to convince me that Animation hybridising endlers is going to mean the extinction of ''pure strain endlers''

In saying that I'm done with this topic.

 

[Animation]

Lol,
Finally somebody agrees!
I'm probably not going to get the breeding up and running for about a year anyway, I am going to need a further 3 tanks, this requires money..
But as adarvark said "One person will not make them extinct" Wild is completely different to captivity.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

And Animation never said they would sell their hybrids as pure strain... but even if Animation was going to, would it matter? Some 10 yr old that wants guppies in their tank might get a hybrid ??? I guess that means the end of endlers??

LOL, i plan to sell them and most likely will sell them as just endlers if they are worth much more

aardvark, i like you and i respect your strong interests in hybridization and our ability as fishkeepers to manipulate genetics into new and powerful shapes. if i recall correctly, on several occasions i've posted in your threads in favor of whatever interesting combination you most recently wish to attempt. i don't feel opposed to hybridization in full, especially when attempted by people familiar with hybrids and their specialized needs/unpredicatability. i would attempt the paradisexcombtail paradise hybrid myself if i had the space to manage a commited breeding program.

however, i cannot in good concience support efforts to drive down the purity of endangered captive species (or sub-species). extinction is a cumulative effect that results from many, many people saying "oh, my efforts won't make a difference." for that reason, anytime that anybody shows interest in hybridizing endlers, i'm going to try to persuade them not to do so. especially if the hybrids are going to no productive use. no exploration into genetics is truely accomplished by hybridising guppies and endlers and "some young kid" with a couple of community tanks is obviously not attempting to create a new strain of guppies enhanced by endler genetics. there's not enough fresh productive output to offset the fact that an endangered species has just been further genetically compromised.

animation, have you considered other potential combinations for hybridization? perhaps try the Apistogramma genus; there are several varieties that are quite commonly tank-bred, exhibit very similar courtship and egg-laying habits, and have never been previously hybridized! you'd be trying something brand new with beautiful fish that actually wouldn't hurt anybody, since your starting fish would have almost no connection to the wild.

pure endlers either come from a concientious breeder (who probably wouldn't sell just 2-3 to some kid anyways) or from fish wholesalers who catch them in the wild. thus, unless you do find a breeder who knows his bloodlines aren't contaminated and will also sell to you, your endlers will come DIRECTLY from the endangered wild population. if you are determined to hybridize endlers, i can't complain too much if you buy from a breeder because (1) the tank-breds have no direct connection to wild populations and (2) endlers are so readily interbred with guppies that you probably won't be able to find pure-strain endlers anyways. just don't sell your F1 hybrids as pure-strain. that is the ultimate in irresponsible handling of hybrids. and remember, if you ever get the slightest amount of guppy genes mixed in, you can never breed them out again.

 

[Animation]

That statement was saying i will probably breed them more to get more money and also i like the hybrid, i have already said im also going to breed pure endlers so what is the problem?

 

[pica_nuttalli]

none, anymore. i can start a big fight over grammar and proper usage of antecedents, but that's neither here nor there.

animation, ultimately you are free to do whatever you wish. but please, take into consideration all of the ramifications of your decisions.

 

[Katchan]

animation, have you considered other potential combinations for hybridization? perhaps try the Apistogramma genus; there are several varieties that are quite commonly tank-bred, exhibit very similar courtship and egg-laying habits, and have never been previously hybridized! you'd be trying something brand new with beautiful fish that actually wouldn't hurt anybody, since your starting fish would have almost no connection to the wild.

Guess again sunshine, some well for lack a better term "work" has been done on hybridsiding apistos, I while generally having a neutral opinion on hybridising am very much against it with apistos most experiments it usually ends up with deformed or not very long lived fish, One strain has been developed the Apistogramma Sp. Steelblue has almost no females, the only way around this is by rebreeding the progenating female line (probably apistogramma caetei or similar) back into a steelblue male which again creates few to no females and only small amount, about 30 or less males. The hybridization of this species occured somewhere around 1997. Unfourtunatly I currently have two of these fish in possesion after they were incorrectly named at the fish store.

Andrew

 

[Animation]

So whyb say guess again sunshine

 

[Katchan]

So whyb say guess again sunshine

Guess again means pica was wrong, kinda like saying you were wrong with your first try pica would you like another attempt but using it in a rhetorical(sp?) way

Sunshine- just one of my speech quirks, being an aussie I could of just as easily said "guess again mate"

Andrew

 

[sylvia]

''Having said that, you are incorrect in your assumption that a single person cannot cause the extinction of a whole species (or several for that matter).''

Your little ''argument'' has nothing to do with whether or not Animation breeds hybrids.... Rabbits in Australia have nothing to do with whether or not Animation breeds hybrids and sells them.

Yes, thankyou. If you look back at the post you were quoting me from, you'll notice my very last sentence actualy very clearly states this!

Note that this is not an argument against hybridizing - I am simply pointing out where you were wrong.

Anyway, what Animation decided on before - breeding pure endler's seperately and selling them as endler's but also breeding hybrids seperately and selling them either as guppies or as hybrids - I'm fine with. I've already said that.
The point I was making was that, when you say a single person cannot affect wild populations - whether it be hybrids or otherwise - you are wrong. I, myself, stated this was not an argument against keeping or creating hybrids! I think I dealt with those arguments earlier on in the thread.

 

[Animation]

Lol,
My brain is spinning
I seemed to have caused so much unwanted conflict
But then again i am an argumentative person also.
Everyone i mean Everyone has their own views on particular subjects.
Often not everybody agrees for example er.. Women having the vote.
I personally am not bothered by this like most of us however there will always be a selective minority of people who are completely against this, I may be only 14 however i too am entitled to my own view- And me personally am not at all bothered about you trying to convince me otherwise as you may have a usefull point.
Now like i said i am probably not going to take this project up for at least a few years however i am one to plan early.
Thanks for your views and more are welcome.