Need Some Advice Asap, Few Issues Suddenly Arose In My Tank :(

[sohipithurts]

So I had 6 tiger barbs, 4 cherry barbs, 6 rasbora's, and a whack of corydora's (variety of type) I also had two dwarf frogs all have been living in harmony for over 5 years. I got all the barbs when they were little and they grew up along side the frogs. 
 
So stupid me, I was going on vacation and did a fairly good clean of my tank (its a 55gal) I did a slightly better gravel clean and rinsed the filter out (did not replace anything kept same charcoal, sponge thingy and water rock stuff) added clean water with prime...like I always do. I don't do cleans that often ...I check my levels regular and all are great always so I tend to leave well enough alone. I also have not lost any fish in over 5 years.  

 
Well I took in two more dwarf frogs from a friend before I left for vacation which made me nervous cause I've introduced no new fish in all this time...but her frogs appeared healthy and I though well it should be no big deal my barbs are used to frogs and have been living harmonious for this long.
 
WRONG!
 
now I don't know entirely all that transpired I bought a 7 day fish feeder since the first few days no one would be around to check on them...by the 4th day my parents had come back from their vacation and checked on my fish. All appeared good. 8th day they came to check on them two tiger barbs were dead (I know what sort of now) he said stomachs were eaten out ( I have a few nerite snails that hitchhiked on live plants I have) so they likely did that. 
 
So by the 10th day I was home I checked the levels were off! badly I checked around for the frogs both of the new frogs GONE! I had to search hard and only found one tiny thing that resembled a frog...how horrifying. My other two orginal frogs were still there...
 
So I triple treated my tank with prime. To try to neturalize the bad levels, and then yesterday and today did small water changes. and I just checked now my levels are fine again...??
 
However my fish are still not okay...they all are being far more aggressive. The barbs are fighting with each other...and just in general acting different. 
I'm a little worried for my remaining frogs.
 
Now I don't know if it was the levels that killed the two new frogs...I'd think not since I've cycled a tank start to finish(not on purpose) with a frog in the past. (had no choice) and it did fine. Did the barbs attack them not accepting them as new fish while I was gone? Did there decomposing bodies (for however many days they were in there) make my levels go temp wonky? Now what do I do about this new aggression. Should I add new tigers...seeing as they do better with more than 6 (now I only have 4) Do I take my frog out and put him in a desktop container (hate to do that as it seems cruel to have him in such a tiny home, but I don't want two full sized tanks. 
 
Feel dumb asking all this as its not my first rodeo. ITs just been so many years since I've even had any kind of a issue I feel like a total noob again. Had a happy healthy tank for so long and then wham it got turned on its head

 

[sohipithurts]

Also been meaning to ask this for awhile...but with my corydora's I have a 4 green,  2 speckled, and 2 panda's. And the speckled stay totally with each other and are shy they generally hide in the caves I have in the tank. The one panda hangs out by himself most of the time...3 green play together...but one panda and one green are totally inseparable. They literally never leave each others side. When the green spawns (does occasionally) the panda gets all excited following it and feels up the eggs as well. Until the tigers of course eat the eggs. 
 
So whats with that? and is it normal for different kinds of corys to be inseparable like that and even go through the spawning procedure together. The other corys are indifferent when the green lays eggs.

 

[nic1]

Hello,

  to the forum
Just a few more questions so others have a better view...
Did you rinse the filter under the tap or in old tank water?
how much water did you change before you left?
did you quarantine the new frogs before they went in to your aquarium?
Also, I wouldnt rely on automatic feeders, they have a tendency to malfunction and dump in a whole lot of food driving up your ammonia levels and nitrite. 
And large water changes rather than extra prime should sort out that out.

 

[NickAu]

 
Did there decomposing bodies (for however many days they were in there) make my levels go temp wonky?

IMO yes, that could be the cause.

 

[sohipithurts]

Hello,

  to the forum

Just a few more questions so others have a better view...
Did you rinse the filter under the tap or in old tank water?
how much water did you change before you left?
did you quarantine the new frogs before they went in to your aquarium?

Also, I wouldnt rely on automatic feeders, they have a tendency to malfunction and dump in a whole lot of food driving up your ammonia levels and nitrite. 
And large water changes rather than extra prime should sort out that out.

Yes I did rinse filter with tap water, but I always fill it with new tap water treated with prime before putting it back into the tank. Not sure if this is wrong..its how I've always done it. I did kind of learn how to care of a tank on my own with trial and error (before having this current tank and before easy internet haha) I changed roughly about just over 2/3 of the water (I spent a little more time than normal on the rocks so a little more of a water change than I normally do) sorry that's not a exact amount...just a eyeball % I should be more accurate Im sure its just I've maybe become complacent over the years. 
And no I didn;t quarantine the frogs just did the normal getting them used to the water temp and ph (my ph is slightly higher were I live) so once water temp was same slowly added my tank water to bag they were in.
 
I used a 7 day feeder block and it was barely touched but was starting to develop rot by time I got home. My parents didn't realize they could take it out while they were back in town and coming to feed the fish. 
 
And thanks that;s good to know about prime and just doing a good water change...i was panicking cause of the chaos of my tank when I returned...toxic high levels...missing frogs serious;y there was nothing left of the two of them...I found one small bone!!! and feeling panic about some fish dying too...I figured from levels or from their eating the frogs,,,I wish I hadn't gone away cause I would have been watching more closely ...really upsetting coming home to vanished frogs (but knowing they got consumed somehow) and some fish casualties

 

[nic1]

Dont worry, every body learns from trial and error, ive been a fish keeper for 20 years and im still learning, the internet has certainly broadened my knowledge.
 
OK, so I think that the clean is probably the inital cause, the filter is the main compartment for storing all the good bacteria in the tank, it should aways been rinised out in tank water to maintain all the goodness... what I usually do is take water from my tank during a water change and let the filter pads float in there for a bit while I do other stuff then I swish them around until all the gunge has been rmoved then I stick them back in the filter, this way you wouldnt run the risk of losing the good bacteria. If you rinsie it under the tap the chlorine or chloramine will kill off the bacteria.
Bacteria also live in the gravel, walls of the tank, decoration...every where really so i think you cleaned a bit too much and wiped out a good portioin of the bacteria, hence the fish deaths.
 
A feeding block is a good idea if youre away for a coiple of days, but in my opinion its not really needed as they can survive a couple of days without food, I once left my tank unattended and unfed for a whole week and when I got back everyone was fine. Dont rely on those feeder blocks as you cant be there to oversee what effects its having on the tank. Next time, I would have your parents feed the fish when they are there.
I only feed my fish every other day or every 3 days and they thrive in my tank. This also keeps my ammonia in check.
 
As mentioned before, the dead bodies will make your levels go crazy, large water changes are your friend! always, when something goes bad in the tank do water changes till things are normal again, unless its an agression thing or anything like that
tiger barbs do best in groups of 6 or more, its probably best if you get a couple more and see if the agression settles down, if not get more plants and see what happens then.

As for corys, they do form friendships with other species, they are a friendly bunch but I think, IMHO, its better to keep a group of 6 of their own species together, they become more playful and fun to watch, but they can intermingle and sometimes you get really lucky and they become the best of friends, I have had this hapen with two male bronze and a pepper corys.

 

[NickAu]

Slightly off topic.
 

 
IMHO, its better to keep a group of 6 of their own species together, they become more playful and fun to watch

I would strongly agree.
 
Now the slightly off topic bit.
 
I had 6 Rasboras the suggested minimum and they were fine, On a whim I decided to get 5 more, After doing all the right things acclimatise Qtank, I added them to my main tank. It took about a day to notice but the fish started acting differently in a good way, Before they were always bunched up and jittery, now they are bold swim all over the tank and watching them feed is amazing, they almost jump out of the water trying to out compete each other to get to food.

 

[Byron]

I won't speculate on the losses, except to say that other members have identified probables.  I will however offer a few suggestions going forward.
 
First, never introduce new inhabitants to an established tank if you intend being away and unable to carefully observe them for at least the first couple of weeks.  Even with quarantining, adding new fish (or frogs here) to the display aquarium must be observed as various issues may quickly arise.
 
Second, when water conditions deteriorate in a situation like this one, water changes are the best remedy.  Do not resort to adding more Prime or anything else.  Prime is not a medication, and regardless of Seachem saying it can be safely overdosed, this is not safe at all.  Masking high ammonia, nitrite or nitrate by adding more chemicals will not help.
 
Third, I would never recommend any automatic feeders or feeding blocks.  If the fish are healthy, and the tank is established and biologically balanced, the fish will be fine for a week or even two.  If you can get an experienced aquarist to feed and check on things, fine; or leave measured amounts of food with clear instructions if you really need to.  Except in the case of fry and a few very small fish species, daily feeding is not necessary.
 
My final comment is on the rinsing of filter media.  I have always done this under the tap with no issues.  My reasoning has always been that nitrifying bacteria live on all surfaces covered by water, and in an established tank (new tanks are different) there will be more in the substrate than in the filter.  But aside from this, recent scientific studies have shown that nitrifying bacteria are not "killed off" by chlorinated tap water like we used to think.  The level of chlorine and the short duration of time is more likely not to have any adverse effect.  Also, bacteria are sticky and adhere to surfaces in the biofilm, and it is not that easy to dislodge them.
 
However, I would say that doing so thorough a cleaning and then not being there to monitor things was risky.  I don't know exactly what you mean by not doing "cleans" that often, so I'll just say that regular weekly partial water changes are essential.  A vacuum of the open area of the substrate during this water change is usually advisable.  This regular maintenance will go a long way to having a stable environment, and one benefit of that is to help offset problems when they occur, such as here.  Things might have gone differently if the biology was in better shape.  I accept this is difficult to say, as I do not know the specifics of your normal maintenance, and adding new inhabitants as I said does risk things, but in general it is better to maintain a regular maintenance including a good partial water change of 1/3 minimum to 1/2 of the tank volume weekly.
 
Byron.

 

[sohipithurts]

I won't speculate on the losses, except to say that other members have identified probables.  I will however offer a few suggestions going forward.
 
First, never introduce new inhabitants to an established tank if you intend being away and unable to carefully observe them for at least the first couple of weeks.  Even with quarantining, adding new fish (or frogs here) to the display aquarium must be observed as various issues may quickly arise.
 
Second, when water conditions deteriorate in a situation like this one, water changes are the best remedy.  Do not resort to adding more Prime or anything else.  Prime is not a medication, and regardless of Seachem saying it can be safely overdosed, this is not safe at all.  Masking high ammonia, nitrite or nitrate by adding more chemicals will not help.
 
Third, I would never recommend any automatic feeders or feeding blocks.  If the fish are healthy, and the tank is established and biologically balanced, the fish will be fine for a week or even two.  If you can get an experienced aquarist to feed and check on things, fine; or leave measured amounts of food with clear instructions if you really need to.  Except in the case of fry and a few very small fish species, daily feeding is not necessary.
 
My final comment is on the rinsing of filter media.  I have always done this under the tap with no issues.  My reasoning has always been that nitrifying bacteria live on all surfaces covered by water, and in an established tank (new tanks are different) there will be more in the substrate than in the filter.  But aside from this, recent scientific studies have shown that nitrifying bacteria are not "killed off" by chlorinated tap water like we used to think.  The level of chlorine and the short duration of time is more likely not to have any adverse effect.  Also, bacteria are sticky and adhere to surfaces in the biofilm, and it is not that easy to dislodge them.
 
However, I would say that doing so thorough a cleaning and then not being there to monitor things was risky.  I don't know exactly what you mean by not doing "cleans" that often, so I'll just say that regular weekly partial water changes are essential.  A vacuum of the open area of the substrate during this water change is usually advisable.  This regular maintenance will go a long way to having a stable environment, and one benefit of that is to help offset problems when they occur, such as here.  Things might have gone differently if the biology was in better shape.  I accept this is difficult to say, as I do not know the specifics of your normal maintenance, and adding new inhabitants as I said does risk things, but in general it is better to maintain a regular maintenance including a good partial water change of 1/3 minimum to 1/2 of the tank volume weekly.
 
Byron.

Thanks for your input. actually everyones...yes it is always a learning process. I as well have never had issues in the past with rinsing filter under the tap. and yes so stupid to go away after introducing new members to the tank I would normally never do this but my friend was in a pickle sadly it resulted in the loss of the frogs. I haven't had any new members added to this tank for years. 
 
And very good tip that with a established tank I could leave without a feeder block for such a long amount of time I did not know that. 
 
I will forgo emerg prime in the future.
 
What else...yes I rarely fiddle with my tank even with water changes, I will do more water changes in the future. I do test levels often and they are always 0. So I just figured I'd leave the tank alone, since levels were stable all these years and fish looked happy. I don't have any dirty fish (goldfish etc) so water always looks good even with not doing many water changes or gravel cleans, oops so I will do more now.
 
I will hold off adding new plants and barbs until i know for sure water is stablized (don't need any more deaths)  
 
Thanks everyone for your help!!
And side note...I did for the first time in over a year cleaned the inside of the glass really well before leaving too....Had some algae etc on it more so on the backside of the tank and I scrubbed all of it off...but I figured it would be okay seeing as it was getting scrubbed inside of the tank. So really probably a mixture of having a too good of a clean and some descomposition sigh

 

[RobRocksFishTank]

My final comment is on the rinsing of filter media.  I have always done this under the tap with no issues.  My reasoning has always been that nitrifying bacteria live on all surfaces covered by water, and in an established tank (new tanks are different) there will be more in the substrate than in the filter.  But aside from this, recent scientific studies have shown that nitrifying bacteria are not "killed off" by chlorinated tap water like we used to think.  The level of chlorine and the short duration of time is more likely not to have any adverse effect.  Also, bacteria are sticky and adhere to surfaces in the biofilm, and it is not that easy to dislodge them.

 
Some people can break the rules with no ill effects but we see this all the time where someone did a good vacuum and rinsed out the filter media in tap water and end up having an ammonia spike. If the Chlorine does not kill off enough bacteria to have an effect, then it's probably a drastic temperature difference. It sounds like you are probably using tap water that is close to the temperature of the tank water or you have enough growing in other areas. For those of us using sand, we are not going to get any real benefit from bacteria growing in the substrate. The water simply does not circulate through it enough to have any benefit.
 
Correct?

 

[Byron]

 

My final comment is on the rinsing of filter media.  I have always done this under the tap with no issues.  My reasoning has always been that nitrifying bacteria live on all surfaces covered by water, and in an established tank (new tanks are different) there will be more in the substrate than in the filter.  But aside from this, recent scientific studies have shown that nitrifying bacteria are not "killed off" by chlorinated tap water like we used to think.  The level of chlorine and the short duration of time is more likely not to have any adverse effect.  Also, bacteria are sticky and adhere to surfaces in the biofilm, and it is not that easy to dislodge them.

 
Some people can break the rules with no ill effects but we see this all the time where someone did a good vacuum and rinsed out the filter media in tap water and end up having an ammonia spike. If the Chlorine does not kill off enough bacteria to have an effect, then it's probably a drastic temperature difference. It sounds like you are probably using tap water that is close to the temperature of the tank water or you have enough growing in other areas. For those of us using sand, we are not going to get any real benefit from bacteria growing in the substrate. The water simply does not circulate through it enough to have any benefit.
 
Correct?
 

 
I won't answer your "Correct?" with one "yes" or "no" because I'm not sure which of your points it may refer to, or if perhaps all.
 
I have sand in six tanks, fine gravel in one.  My tanks are planted, moderately I would say.  I have never had ammonia or nitrite above zero.   Nitrate stays between 0 and 5 ppm.  I change 50-60% of the water every week.  In such a tank, there is more nitrifying bacteria in the substrate and on the plants/wood/rock than in the filter.  It is only in newly set-up tanks that have not yet established biologically [for the benefit of inexperienced members reading this, not either of us Rob, I'll mention that "established" means 2-3 months or longer, well past cycled, by which time the tank's natural biology is or should be on the way to being stable] that one can find more nitrifying bacteria in the filter.  And I too would caution owners of new tanks to take the extra precaution when rinsing filters.
 
Temperature changes can easily shock fish.  I use my hand to estimate the tap water temp, aiming to have it a bit cooler than the tank water.  I have read of members who use only cold water, and this in my mind is dangerous.  In another thread a while back we went into this, and I did some tests and determined that if I changed half the tank with only cold water, the tank temp were lower from the normal 76/77F down to 65F, and in my view that sudden of a change would be quite detrimental.
 
Aquarium bacteria is a subject that is not well understood by many aquarists.  We all may have something to learn here, myself certainly included.
 
I just went back through this thread and noticed the OP has not posted numbers for these "levels were off," so we are missing data.  Also, I believe live plants are present, and that of course makes quite a difference too.  I'm inclined to look to the "new" frogs as the problem.
 
Byron.

 

[Byron]

What else...yes I rarely fiddle with my tank even with water changes, I will do more water changes in the future. I do test levels often and they are always 0. So I just figured I'd leave the tank alone, since levels were stable all these years and fish looked happy. I don't have any dirty fish (goldfish etc) so water always looks good even with not doing many water changes or gravel cleans, oops so I will do more now.
 

 
I'd like to comment on this if I may.  I often read members saying they do tests and the numbers are fine, so that means the water is good and water changes are not as important.  Nothing could be more inaccurate.
 
Some aquarists wait for test numbers to indicate some problem before doing a water change, but fail to realize that the damage has already occurred if it shows up in tests.  The water change may then aid in rectifying things, but it could have prevented them had the water changes been regular and substantial.  Having "good" test numbers may indicate the chemistry is fairly good, but it is not an indicator that the fish are at their best, or rather that their water is.  There are toxic substances in aquaria water that can only be removed via a water change, regardless of filters.  Total dissolved solids, pheromones, allomones, and much of the waste in liquid form will remain in the tank water until the water is removed.  The water may also be crystal clear, but still problematical to the fish.
 
Regular partial water changes are a good way to encourage nature to do much of the work, and this is always safer and easier.  Nature has the experience.  The hobby today bombards us with all sorts of chemical additives that will do this or that, but every one of these has an impact on the water chemistry and the biological system, and the more there are, the more risk that something may one day fall off the rails.
 
Byron.

 

[RobRocksFishTank]

I may be wrong about this but doesn't larger sized substrate actually get you more surface area because the water circulates through it more readily with both mechanical and natural means?
 
Sand is almost akin to having a bare bottom. Circulation is cut off and debris just settles at the top. I'm new to using sand in freshwater and am basing this on limited observation and what I've read.
 
As to how long an aquarium takes to be fully established, I'm going to say it's at least six months to a year. I might be using different criteria, though. In my experience, if something goes awry with that balance that we are trying to achieve, things go south really quickly in newer aquariums. Once they are established, if there is a problem with that balance, it's usually is slow to happen and not as devastating. IMHO, a fishless cycled tank is still fragile and far from being established.
 
All this is not based on deep scientific knowledge on my part, but much more so on vast experience and having a "feel" for what is going on. I'd love to here from the scientists on this.

 

[sohipithurts]

 

 


My final comment is on the rinsing of filter media.  I have always done this under the tap with no issues.  My reasoning has always been that nitrifying bacteria live on all surfaces covered by water, and in an established tank (new tanks are different) there will be more in the substrate than in the filter.  But aside from this, recent scientific studies have shown that nitrifying bacteria are not "killed off" by chlorinated tap water like we used to think.  The level of chlorine and the short duration of time is more likely not to have any adverse effect.  Also, bacteria are sticky and adhere to surfaces in the biofilm, and it is not that easy to dislodge them.

 
Some people can break the rules with no ill effects but we see this all the time where someone did a good vacuum and rinsed out the filter media in tap water and end up having an ammonia spike. If the Chlorine does not kill off enough bacteria to have an effect, then it's probably a drastic temperature difference. It sounds like you are probably using tap water that is close to the temperature of the tank water or you have enough growing in other areas. For those of us using sand, we are not going to get any real benefit from bacteria growing in the substrate. The water simply does not circulate through it enough to have any benefit.
 
Correct?
 

 
I won't answer your "Correct?" with one "yes" or "no" because I'm not sure which of your points it may refer to, or if perhaps all.
 
I have sand in six tanks, fine gravel in one.  My tanks are planted, moderately I would say.  I have never had ammonia or nitrite above zero.   Nitrate stays between 0 and 5 ppm.  I change 50-60% of the water every week.  In such a tank, there is more nitrifying bacteria in the substrate and on the plants/wood/rock than in the filter.  It is only in newly set-up tanks that have not yet established biologically [for the benefit of inexperienced members reading this, not either of us Rob, I'll mention that "established" means 2-3 months or longer, well past cycled, by which time the tank's natural biology is or should be on the way to being stable] that one can find more nitrifying bacteria in the filter.  And I too would caution owners of new tanks to take the extra precaution when rinsing filters.
 
Temperature changes can easily shock fish.  I use my hand to estimate the tap water temp, aiming to have it a bit cooler than the tank water.  I have read of members who use only cold water, and this in my mind is dangerous.  In another thread a while back we went into this, and I did some tests and determined that if I changed half the tank with only cold water, the tank temp were lower from the normal 76/77F down to 65F, and in my view that sudden of a change would be quite detrimental.
 
Aquarium bacteria is a subject that is not well understood by many aquarists.  We all may have something to learn here, myself certainly included.
 
I just went back through this thread and noticed the OP has not posted numbers for these "levels were off," so we are missing data.  Also, I believe live plants are present, and that of course makes quite a difference too.  I'm inclined to look to the "new" frogs as the problem.
 
Byron.
 


At the time I posted my numbers were .50 ppm for ammonia and .25 ppm for nitrite and 20ppm for Nitrate. And yes live plants are present although they tend to constantly die (and then I replace) How does this make a difference if I may ask? Just curious.
 
And also your inclined to think the new frogs were the problem? I was starting to feel like it was likely my extra good clean, lol...although I did not much different than all other cleans over the years just spent a little more time cleaning the inside part of the glass and a little more time cleaning the gravel. I rinsed my filter like normal, didn't scrub it clean or anything just a good rinse.
 
I as well finger test the water and keep it as accurate to the tank water as possible. Years ago I would stand there with a temp gauge and wow that's time consuming so I don't do that anymore.
 
I will do more water changes for sure, and wont go by test numbers and water appearance. In over 5 years I've never had the tank go wonky. This time threw me for a loop cause its a very established long running tank. 
 
As for the frogs that died (well disappeared since I found next to nothing of them) Is it possible that since the tank had been going for so long 5 years with the same occupants. That they just weren't accepted by the tiger barbs, are tiger barbs even smart like that? I don't have a ton of snails in the tank I find it hard to believe they ate up every bit of the perished frogs in the time my parents came and started checking up on the tank. Both of the frogs were chunky healthy frogs. 

 

[Byron]

I may be wrong about this but doesn't larger sized substrate actually get you more surface area because the water circulates through it more readily with both mechanical and natural means?
 
Sand is almost akin to having a bare bottom. Circulation is cut off and debris just settles at the top. I'm new to using sand in freshwater and am basing this on limited observation and what I've read.
 

 
Water should circulate through sand, it does in all freshwater and marine ecosystems with sand.  As for the aquarium, the water will flow down through the sand where it is slightly heated (due to the action of the bacteria breaking down organics) so it then rises back up into the aquarium, as cooler water flows down, and so forth.  The detritus in my tanks works its way down into the sand somehow, it certainly disappears.  Plant roots release a lot of oxygen into the sand.  And plant roots must take up nutrients from the water, so a circulation of water bringing more nutrients is essential.  Malaysian Livebearing snails help by crawling throughout the sand.  Some anaerobic areas are necessary to provide the last component of the nitrification cycle, which is actually denitrification.  Provided the sand bed is not too deep this should all work.  There is more danger with gravel composed of grains that are too large, say larger than pea gravel.
 

As to how long an aquarium takes to be fully established, I'm going to say it's at least six months to a year. I might be using different criteria, though. In my experience, if something goes awry with that balance that we are trying to achieve, things go south really quickly in newer aquariums. Once they are established, if there is a problem with that balance, it's usually is slow to happen and not as devastating. IMHO, a fishless cycled tank is still fragile and far from being established.
 

 
I agree with this, though I think the biological system will become fairly stable in somewhat less time than you suggest.